Gerry Adams arrested in connection with IRA murder

**SKII** · 30-04-14, 21:40

BBC News - Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams held over Jean McConville murder

**HATTIE** · 30-04-14, 21:41

Originally Posted by SKII

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BBC News - Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams held over Jean McConville murder

That was a despicable murder, if he was involved he should be locked up for life...

**The__Proclaimer** · 30-04-14, 22:38

Aye but...but...the IRA are nothing but freedom fighters.

**broonieboy** · 30-04-14, 22:40

If he wasn't involved he will know who was.

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**SlovSam** · 01-05-14, 00:58

As the Irish Republican Army's Belfast Brigades Officer commanding at the time of the awful abduction and subsequent murder of Mrs Mconville, its almost certain Mr Adams has a huge case to answer.

English and British people have never quite reconciled Mr Adams shadowy past between 1972-1975 and preferred instead to concentrate on the political leader they could do business with either in secret or latterly in public.

If anyone is interested in this period of Irish history I strongly recommend the book "The Armed Struggle:The History of the Irish Republican Army" by Professor Richard English.

It is balanced,fair,thoughtful,incredibly concise and detailed and deserves all the accolades it has received as the definitive deconstruction of the political struggle in Northern Ireland/North of Ireland.

**newhoosehibby** · 01-05-14, 00:59

We should be taking the same line as happened in South Africa under Mandella, truth and reconciliation,.

**Dub** · 01-05-14, 10:51

Originally Posted by newhoosehibby

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We should be taking the same line as happened in South Africa under Mandella, truth and reconciliation,.

By that do you mean just let him off with it and move on?

**newhoosehibby** · 01-05-14, 10:57

Originally Posted by Dub

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By that do you mean just let him off with it and move on?

He cant be let off with anything Dub he has not been charged or found guilty of anything yet, But Mandela Realised that for things to move on In South Africa there had to be a process that recognised the crimes of the past and that admissions had to be made so maybe thats whats needed In The north of Ireland.

**Gunnerhibby** · 01-05-14, 11:37

Originally Posted by newhoosehibby

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He cant be let off with anything Dub he has not been charged or found guilty of anything yet, But Mandela Realised that for things to move on In South Africa there had to be a process that recognised the crimes of the past and that admissions had to be made so maybe thats whats needed In The north of Ireland.

so if evidence is ever found to convict those responsible for this, do we just not charge them and move on?

Northern Ireland loyalist shootings: one night of carnage, 18 years of silence | UK news | The Guardian

or if any of the NI Police, and British Government officials, were ever found to have sanctioned killings like this, do we just say "aye OK it was in the past, lets move on"

Northern Ireland’s police ‘colluded with loyalists to cover up Catholic murders’ - Crime - UK - The Independent

I just cant agree with the mindset that we "just move on". People have to held accountable for their actions, especially when it comes to murder. If there is evidence that Adams was responsible for, or involved in any way with, the McConville kidnap and murder then he should be tried for it.

**Dub** · 01-05-14, 12:48

Originally Posted by newhoosehibby

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He cant be let off with anything Dub he has not been charged or found guilty of anything yet, But Mandela Realised that for things to move on In South Africa there had to be a process that recognised the crimes of the past and that admissions had to be made so maybe thats whats needed In The north of Ireland.

Okay then, are you suggesting that the allegation against him re Jean McConville shouldnt be investigated or that it should be investigated and if he is found guilty he should be let off? If so then I totally disagree with you.

I'm all for live and let live

Pity the murdering $#@! that committed the crime [whoever he or she may be] wasn't of the same mindset.

**Brainwrong** · 01-05-14, 12:49

Originally Posted by SlovSam

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As the Irish Republican Army's Belfast Brigades Officer commanding at the time of the awful abduction and subsequent murder of Mrs Mconville, its almost certain Mr Adams has a huge case to answer.

English and British people have never quite reconciled Mr Adams shadowy past between 1972-1975 and preferred instead to concentrate on the political leader they could do business with either in secret or latterly in public.

If anyone is interested in this period of Irish history I strongly recommend the book "The Armed Struggle:The History of the Irish Republican Army" by Professor Richard English.

It is balanced,fair,thoughtful,incredibly concise and detailed and deserves all the accolades it has received as the definitive deconstruction of the political struggle in Northern Ireland/North of Ireland.

That looks like an exceptional book, which I'm about to order. There's an interesting discourse in the Customer Reviews section on Amazon...

Originally Posted by [URL="http://www.hibeesbounce.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3VTBK9N22HPQG/ref=cm_cr_rdp_pdp"

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Neutral "Phil"[/URL];1393456]In July 1927 the Vice President of the Irish Republic, Kevin O'Higgins, was walking to Mass when he was spotted by three IRA men who shot and killed him 'in hate-filled rage'. Such rage was endemic to Irish Republicanism and was used as an excuse for murder. Republican philosophy was best summarised as, 'We want a 32 county Ireland based on socialist principles and we'll kill anyone who opposes what we want.' This combination of nationalism and socialism led to support for the Nazis during world war two and Libyan dictator Gaddafi later. In 1988 the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) leader John Hume accused the Provisional IRA (PIRA) as having 'contempt for the views and opinions of Irish people'. He claimed their self-portrait as 'the pure master race of Irish' represented a 'deep-seated attitude, married to their method, (that) has all the hallmarks of undiluted fascism. They also have the other hallmarks of the fascist - the scapegoat - the British are to blame for everything even (PIRA) atrocities'. Hume said, 'they take onto themselves the right, without consultation with anyone, to dispense death and destruction.'

Sinn Fein's tactic was to play the role of the heroic underdog being unfairly chased by those who had 'not moved on'. Thus when in December 2000 Patrick Magee came face to face with the daughter of Anthony Berry who had been killed by Magee's Brighton bomb, he acknowledged Berry was a human being but did not recognise the pain his actions had caused. Tommy McKearney was a rare IRA man who admitted he 'did not understand the actual, brutal damage that we were doing to the Protestant community by killing UDR and RUC men'. Most IRA volunteers lacked the morality to weigh up the consequences of what they did and evaluate it in human terms. This made Sinn Fein's 'sincere apologies and condolences' to the families of non-combatants killed during the troubles cynical and dishonest, as some bombs had been placed to kill civilians.

When the Real IRA (RIRA) committed the Omagh atrocity Senator George Mitchell spoke of, 'the brutality, the senselessness, the utter insanity of political violence in Northern Ireland'. Republicans consistently followed their crimes with lies and propaganda to divert attention away from their actions and shift responsibility onto others. Jean McConville, a widow with ten children, was abducted from her home, tortured and shot. It was falsely claimed she had helped a wounded British soldier and was an informer for the British. Her real crime was that she was a Protestant who had married a Catholic. Dolours Price admitted driving the vehicle in which McConville was taken away and accused Gerry Adams of ordering the killing. Whereas Sinn Fein repeatedly called for inquiries into "Bloody Sunday' and the murder of Pat Finucane they were silent where the murder of Jean McConville was concerned.

The contrast with the response of Gordon Wilson to the murder of his daughter at Enniskillen on Remembrance Day 1987 could not have been more marked. Wilson said, "I bear no ill will. I bear no grudge". When he eventually met IRA volunteers he realised human considerations were foreign to their way of thinking. A much larger bomb planted at Tullyhommom failed to detonate during a Remembrance service attended by Boys' and Girls' Brigades. The IRA stood the Enniskillen killers down but continued to kill elsewhere including Britain itself. The IRA policy was to force Britain out of Northern Ireland and in the early seventies repeatedly claimed Britain was on its knees and would soon leave. They were out of touch with political reality. Bombing mainland Britain strengthened the hand of the British government and stiffened popular opinion against the bombers. It was not the IRA which broke the power of the Ulster Unionists it was Willie Whitelaw.

The IRA was not the only paramilitary group involved in murder, although they were responsible for 48.5 per cent of all killings between 1966 and 2001. Many killings were carried out on the basis of rumour, specifically targeted Protestants and tried to provoke a military response. They failed because they did not understand British attitudes towards the Irish or Ulster Unionists. The IRA's ideology justified violence as an acceptable part of political activity. They were deluded in thinking the British government would give in to the hunger strikers. Bobby Sands's death added to the mythology of Irish heroism but was politically inept. The IRA was instrumental in establishing the Northern Irish civil rights movement to address equal rights for Catholics. By under-estimating Unionist fears of an IRA uprising, the movement 'unintentionally helped to produce a descent into awful and lasting violence', initially perpetrated by the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). The UVF announced, 'we declare war against the IRA and its splinter groups. Known IRA men will be executed mercilessly and without hesitation' and launched a campaign to force Catholics out of Protestant areas. Dissident IRA members formed the PIRA to defend Catholics against perceived threats from the police and Protestant paramilitaries. That Catholics in Ulster had been regarded as fifth columnists and discriminated against is historically true. Whether this justified political violence is debatable.

The IRA refused to accept Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom and wanted to reunite it with the rest of Ireland. They did not understand that the majority in Northern Ireland regarded reunification as unacceptable. The PIRA did not start violence in Ulster but extended it by avoiding political solutions until the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. The lack of trust between Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) and Sinn Fein on decommissioning delayed the establishment of a power-sharing executive until 2007, since when violence has been restricted to dissident republican groups. The pragmatic nature of British politics leads to compromise. The deterministic nature of the IRA did not. By adopting British pragmatism Sinn Fein obtained political influence their bombs could never achieve. Five stars for this even-handed treatment of Irish politics.

Then...

Originally Posted by [COLOR=#004b91

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touchtheclouds[/COLOR];1393456]
Firstly, Kevin O'Higgins was not vice-President of Irish Republic' as you say because he was shot dead in 1927 by the IRA some 10 years before the Irish Free State became the Republic Of Ireland and, it is also noteworthy that you failed to mention that as a member of the pro-treaty government after 1921 O'Higgins oversaw the executions of dozens of republican prisoners. My point is that the 'hate filled rage' which motivated his murder was perhaps understandable to some extent considering he was himself a murderer (on his way to Mass!!).
Your review is littered with other inaccuracies and describes rumours and theories as fact, for example ''The IRA was instrumental in establishing the Northern Irish civil rights movement to address equal rights for Catholics'' Not True!
The ultimate reason I clicked 'no' beside the 'was this review helpful?' question is because your review is more a 6 paragraph account of why YOU perceive Irish republicanism in a negative light and less a review of the actual book in question.

Then, in response...

Originally Posted by [URL="http://www.hibeesbounce.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3VTBK9N22HPQG/ref=cm_cr_rdp_pdp"

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Neutral "Phil"[/URL];1393456]
If you intend to criticise alleged factual errors (and mine is acknowledged) then the least you should do is make sure your own facts are correct. In 1937 the Irish Free State became Ireland, it was not until 1948 that it became the Republic of Ireland. There is nothing noteworthy about my not mentioning O'Higgins' role in the Irish civil war because the book was not about the pro-treaty government but the IRA's 'hate filled rage'. Not my words but those of the book's author.

You also appear not to understand the underlying point that the IRA's ideology has always been self-serving, amoral and violent which is why one of O'Higgins' murderers, Archie Doyle, took pride in having killed him. You also miss the connection between the civil war and violence in Irish political culture. De Valera recognised it when he granted amnesty to IRA members on taking power in 1932.

As regards the Northern Irish Civil Rights Movement in 1967, its steering committee included the IRA Belfast Officer Commanding, Liam McMillan.

As regards your judgement of the review you appear to have overlooked the fact that I quoted extensively from the book itself. Any negativity was presented by the Book's author through the words of the people of Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, Jean McConville was not able to contribute, although Sinn Fein supporters accuse those who mention her name as attacking Sinn Fein.

It's not Irish Republicanism I perceive in a negative light, it's political violence whatever its source. Regrettably, as Gordon Wilson found out, the PIRA, while it did not start the violence in the 1960s, demonstrated a complete lack of humanity carrying it out. They weren't the only paramilitary group guilty of such inhumanity but they remain amongst the few who have never apologised for killing innocent people. Presumably you consider this a virtue whereas I consider it a vice.

**southfieldhibby** · 01-05-14, 12:50

Truth and reconciliation would require someone to admit to this insanely brutal murder,somehow I cannae see that happening.

**Central_Hibee** · 01-05-14, 14:50

Surely part of being British is that we protect our people with the power of our military and our laws. If found guilty he should rot in jail.

**Smurf** · 01-05-14, 15:17

It's an impossible situation. To many this was a war. And to many it wasn't. Depending on your point of view in that respect prejudices all your views on all of this.

**Westside Green** · 01-05-14, 15:41

Originally Posted by Smurfy

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It's an impossible situation. To many this was a war. And to many it wasn't. Depending on your point of view in that respect prejudices all your views on all of this.

Depending on the viewpoint it's either a common murder or a war crime. If Adams was involved he should stand trial but I wouldn't put money on a conviction.

**Dub** · 01-05-14, 19:59

Originally Posted by Smurfy

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It's an impossible situation. To many this was a war. And to many it wasn't. Depending on your point of view in that respect prejudices all your views on all of this.

Depends on your point of view. In a battle between say the YBT and the Bar-Ox each one on either side might consider it to be a war of sorts. If someone dies during the battle you can bet your house that the polis will find, try and convict the murderer. This situation is no different really except in scale and the fact that the lady in question wasnt even involved in the battle. Someone killed that poor woman and they should pay for that.

It's a matter of perspective right enough.

**EA2007** · 01-05-14, 21:00

If he's needing a hand with a dirty protest then I'd gladly go and throw $#@! at him....and any c that has sympathies towards convicted murderers.

**1875** · 01-05-14, 21:26

Originally Posted by Crooksy

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If he's needing a hand with a dirty protest then I'd gladly go and throw $#@! at him....and any c that has sympathies towards convicted murderers.

$#@! thrower.

**GdanskHibee** · 01-05-14, 22:17

Originally Posted by Smurfy

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It's an impossible situation. To many this was a war. And to many it wasn't. Depending on your point of view in that respect prejudices all your views on all of this.

Aye, a war largely conducted against innocent, unarmed civilians. Monsters and maniacs with guns and a reason to use them. Hunt the f@ckers down and bring them to justice.

**The__Proclaimer** · 02-05-14, 11:39

Originally Posted by Smurfy

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It's an impossible situation. To many this was a war. And to many it wasn't. Depending on your point of view in that respect prejudices all your views on all of this.

If British soldiers during the Iraqi war had kidnapped a woman, tortured her, hid her body and kept its burial secret for 30 years because a rumour was floating about that she was passing information on to the opposition, you can be sure they would be convicted, or at least stand trial, for an act of war crime.

**Smurf** · 02-05-14, 13:03

Originally Posted by The__Proclaimer

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If British soldiers during the Iraqi war had kidnapped a woman, tortured her, hid her body and kept its burial secret for 30 years because a rumour was floating about that she was passing information on to the opposition, you can be sure they would be convicted, or at least stand trial, for an act of war crime.

And I would agree with that.