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Thread: Bitcoin

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    Bitcoin

    Fascinating example of free capital markets in action and the effect of bubbles, supply and demand as well as manipulation.

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    agreed - and it is so so going to end in tears

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    agreed - and it is so so going to end in tears
    PauL Krugman in the NY Times is always good on this stuff (reference the Washington babysitting scrip paper). this was his take a while back.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...-cyberfetters/

    Love the naive pseudo-hippy bollocks coming from the bit coin acolytes. As you say, it will end in tears - but not mine.

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    Looks like the Bitcoin bubble just burst. Down over 50% in a matter of hours. Can you say dump.

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    Not burst yet, bitcoin now equal to 11389.05GBP

    IIRC bitcoin and bitcoin mining was discussed on another thread a good few years ago, I believe @Dub had taken an interest?
    "Life goes by pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." - Ferris Bueller

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibee Kev View Post
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    Not burst yet, bitcoin now equal to 11389.05GBP

    IIRC bitcoin and bitcoin mining was discussed on another thread a good few years ago, I believe @Dub had taken an interest?
    You're correct Kev. I worked with a guy who had a bitcoin miner running constantly in the office. Every now and then you would hear a little tinkle as a part bitcoin [1000th I think] dropped in to his online wallet. I thought about it but the returns against the cost of running the machine didn't make sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    You're correct Kev. I worked with a guy who had a bitcoin miner running constantly in the office. Every now and then you would hear a little tinkle as a part bitcoin [1000th I think] dropped in to his online wallet. I thought about it but the returns against the cost of running the machine didn't make sense.
    Cheers Dub. Wonder with the value Bitcoin is currently sitting at, it might be something worth revisiting

    Don't know enough about it TBH, how easy is it to liquify Bitcoin into £GBP cash in your bank account? Or alternatively, how easy is it to spend bitcoin on goods or services? Can't recall seeing too many websites offering it as a form of payment.

    Seems a very volatile market but overall trend is upward; from $1 value to $15,000 in 7 years!
    "Life goes by pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." - Ferris Bueller

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibee Kev View Post
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    Cheers Dub. Wonder with the value Bitcoin is currently sitting at, it might be something worth revisiting

    Don't know enough about it TBH, how easy is it to liquify Bitcoin into £GBP cash in your bank account? Or alternatively, how easy is it to spend bitcoin on goods or services? Can't recall seeing too many websites offering it as a form of payment.

    Seems a very volatile market but overall trend is upward; from $1 value to $15,000 in 7 years!
    It's £1577.00 at the moment. The mining lark was too costly mate. The only way to make any real money would be to have a bank of miners [cost then was about £400.00 each] and an unlimited supply of free electricity.

    Back in the day people spent their bit coins on the dark web [which is a mindlblowing place]. Not sure about now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    It's £1577.00 at the moment. The mining lark was too costly mate. The only way to make any real money would be to have a bank of miners [cost then was about £400.00 each] and an unlimited supply of free electricity.

    Back in the day people spent their bit coins on the dark web [which is a mindlblowing place]. Not sure about now.
    Pretty sure it's fairly liquid now, although the guy next to me in my office has just opened a Polish bank account to facilitate a trade so it's maybe not quite the same as selling Vodafone shares!

    I think you're a bit off beam on the price. Is it not up at about 12.5k?

    +30 per cent just this week.
    so what do I know

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    I work beside a guy who was telling me his brother in law received five bitcoins as a gag birthday gift several years ago when they were about $.30 each. Today, each bitcoin is worth almost $16,000. I was tempted to buy into bitcoin earlier this year when it's value was about $1,000. But I didn't do it because I did not trust the mechanism for trading actual money for something that was virtual. I thought (and still do) there is something well shady about how and who is in charge of the trades. I read today some $65m worth of bitcoins have disappeared from a few wallets. Looking back, I do regret not taking a risk on buying bitcoin but at $16,000 is just way too risky. the speculators are in there now and the bubble will eventually pop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    I work beside a guy who was telling me his brother in law received five bitcoins as a gag birthday gift several years ago when they were about $.30 each. Today, each bitcoin is worth almost $16,000. I was tempted to buy into bitcoin earlier this year when it's value was about $1,000. But I didn't do it because I did not trust the mechanism for trading actual money for something that was virtual. I thought (and still do) there is something well shady about how and who is in charge of the trades. I read today some $65m worth of bitcoins have disappeared from a few wallets. Looking back, I do regret not taking a risk on buying bitcoin but at $16,000 is just way too risky. the speculators are in there now and the bubble will eventually pop.
    Yeah I agree, although it might pop at 60k!

    Mate of mine bought a load a couple of years ago. They weren't 30c but they were only a few dozen quid I think. He's just bought a new house and it's a lot bigger than I thought it was going to be, put it that way.

    Also know a few lads who used to use bitcoin to buy stuff on Silk Road. Always complaining about how annoying it was. Bet they wish they's left off the gear and kept the coins!

    I never bought any, partly because I read an article about a year or so ago that was very persuasive about why it was so shonky. Bah.
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    Yeah I agree, although it might pop at 60k!

    Mate of mine bought a load a couple of years ago. They weren't 30c but they were only a few dozen quid I think. He's just bought a new house and it's a lot bigger than I thought it was going to be, put it that way.

    Also know a few lads who used to use bitcoin to buy stuff on Silk Road. Always complaining about how annoying it was. Bet they wish they's left off the gear and kept the coins!

    I never bought any, partly because I read an article about a year or so ago that was very persuasive about why it was so shonky. Bah.
    I've tried repeatedly to get my head around the concept of decentralized digital currency but it is hopeless. My cynical Scottish nature can only see it as a massive pyramid scheme that will be under constant threat of being undercut by a rival currency. Also due to the high level of hardcore criminals using Bitcoin I can't help but think if you tried to cash in those 100 coins you got at 30 cents you wouldn't get the $19k per coin being floated around today. However, your mates new house would imply otherwise...

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasco de gama View Post
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    I've tried repeatedly to get my head around the concept of decentralized digital currency but it is hopeless. My cynical Scottish nature can only see it as a massive pyramid scheme that will be under constant threat of being undercut by a rival currency. Also due to the high level of hardcore criminals using Bitcoin I can't help but think if you tried to cash in those 100 coins you got at 30 cents you wouldn't get the $19k per coin being floated around today. However, your mates new house would imply otherwise...
    I think you can trade it fairly safely now. But I totally agree with you about the pyramid nature of it, and the interesting thing is that the more expensive and volatile it is the less use it is as a currency - ie a way of transferring value. I think it'll equalise at a certain level although I'm not sure where that will be.
    so what do I know

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    There are plenty of legitimate trading platforms where you can buy cryptocurrency. I don’t view it as any bigger a gamble than stocks or forex trading. Bitcoin especially seems to bullet proof with regards to negative headlines right now, which goes against most traditional market effects.
    We wanna be free, we wanna be free to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded, and we wanna have a good time... That's what we're gonna do

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    My brain just refuses to understand the concept of virtual money
    Can anyone try and explain in simple terms WTF it is all about ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tayside hibee View Post
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    My brain just refuses to understand the concept of virtual money
    Can anyone try and explain in simple terms WTF it is all about ?
    I’ll give it a go. The technical specifics are beyond me but I get the basics.

    Bitcoin is currency which is not run by a central bank. It works on a decentralised network of bitcoin ‘miners’.

    Mining is basically confirming transactions. By having various people confirming them, it becomes more secure - people can’t mess with the transaction data - it won’t get confirmed if they do. In exchange for this work, miners occasionally unlock (win) bitcoins

    You keep bitcoin in a bitcoin wallet. This is essentially an online ID. When transactions are made, they are recorded publicly on a ‘blockchain’ - basically a history of the transactions of that bitcoin.

    Bitcoin is in the headlines because people have been speculating on it and the value has increased significantly recently. The problem is that despite being quite exciting technology, it’s not being widely used yet. The main use currently is amongst criminals (due to being untraceable). It’s therefore very likely that the price will crash at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tayside hibee View Post
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    My brain just refuses to understand the concept of virtual money
    Can anyone try and explain in simple terms WTF it is all about ?
    There are many ways to look at it, personally I’ve taken the view that it’s an exchange (think stocks or currency) to speculate on rather than actual money to spend. I’ve changed GBP into Bitcoin and a few others (which go into wallets for those respective currencies e.g. Bitcoin) and will transfer it back into GBP at some point, hopefully having made a profit.
    We wanna be free, we wanna be free to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded, and we wanna have a good time... That's what we're gonna do

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    Quote Originally Posted by HibeeZab View Post
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    There are many ways to look at it, personally I’ve taken the view that it’s an exchange (think stocks or currency) to speculate on rather than actual money to spend. I’ve changed GBP into Bitcoin and a few others (which go into wallets for those respective currencies e.g. Bitcoin) and will transfer it back into GBP at some point, hopefully having made a profit.
    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    I’ll give it a go. The technical specifics are beyond me but I get the basics.

    Bitcoin is currency which is not run by a central bank. It works on a decentralised network of bitcoin ‘miners’.

    Mining is basically confirming transactions. By having various people confirming them, it becomes more secure - people can’t mess with the transaction data - it won’t get confirmed if they do. In exchange for this work, miners occasionally unlock (win) bitcoins

    You keep bitcoin in a bitcoin wallet. This is essentially an online ID. When transactions are made, they are recorded publicly on a ‘blockchain’ - basically a history of the transactions of that bitcoin.



    Bitcoin is in the headlines because people have been speculating on it and the value has increased significantly recently. The problem is that despite being quite exciting technology, it’s not being widely used yet. The main use currently is amongst criminals (due to being untraceable). It’s therefore very likely that the price will crash at some point.

    Truly guys I thank you , but I still am no further forward afraid. I am well aware this is down to my intelligence capacity , and not your explanations.
    I understand the offside rule , indirect free kicks and even E = mc2 , but can't get my head around Bitcoin . Who starts it? Can I start Hibcoin tomorrow and will you buy some???
    My brain is hurting , goodnight xxxx

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    Quote Originally Posted by tayside hibee View Post
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    Truly guys I thank you , but I still am no further forward afraid. I am well aware this is down to my intelligence capacity , and not your explanations.
    I understand the offside rule , indirect free kicks and even E = mc2 , but can't get my head around Bitcoin . Who starts it? Can I start Hibcoin tomorrow and will you buy some???
    My brain is hurting , goodnight xxxx
    Funny thing, I don’t think anyone knows for sure who started bitcoin but yes, in theory anyone could start their own crypto-currency and indeed there are loads.
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Bitcoin is really not much different than paper currency. Back in the day real money was a tangible assset in gold and silver. Somewhere along the line they backed the currency with paper notes, which in reality are worthless pieces of paper. So Bitcoin have skipped the paper and kept it digital.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    Bitcoin is really not much different than paper currency. Back in the day real money was a tangible assset in gold and silver. Somewhere along the line they backed the currency with paper notes, which in reality are worthless pieces of paper. So Bitcoin have skipped the paper and kept it digital.
    So. who has the gold reserves for bitcoins?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    So. who has the gold reserves for bitcoins?
    Interestingly, bitcoin, although not backed by gold, has more in common with gold than traditional currencies in that it is limited. Just as no-one can create more gold, no one can create new bitcoins.

    The value of gold is based on little other than its scarcity and history. Longer term, perhaps bitcoin could be a digital store of wealth more akin to gold than a standard currency.
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    So. who has the gold reserves for bitcoins?
    That's about the best way to transfer your Bitcoin to cash. There's two major bullion dealers over my side of the pond that take Bitcoin for bullion. I transferred a Bitcoin for gold back when Bitcoin was $5000. Could have had a lot more had I waited, but hey hum. Still waiting on this bull market in the precious metals market to begin. Platinum seems like a good buy.

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    I really wish I could make sense of this. Sounds like I could make a bit of money.


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    My bank closed my account over Bitcoin. Banks and the government don't like it one "bit". I was transferring money from my bank to a company called Circle, then buying the, directly that way. Now Circle as even stopped Bitcoin. Bank wanted to know where my money was going etc. Told them Bitcoin and a few weeks later I had a month to clear my account and SD box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    I really wish I could make sense of this. Sounds like I could make a bit of money.
    Some people will make money, some will lose it. Buying in now is very risky as it's quite clearly a bubble being funded by speculators. Who knows when the speculators will stop investing or the big investors will start pulling out? Additionally, it's now on the mainstream radar so there is also the risk that governments start to talk about regulation, which would potentially kill it.
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    That's about the best way to transfer your Bitcoin to cash. There's two major bullion dealers over my side of the pond that take Bitcoin for bullion. I transferred a Bitcoin for gold back when Bitcoin was $5000. Could have had a lot more had I waited, but hey hum. Still waiting on this bull market in the precious metals market to begin. Platinum seems like a good buy.
    About time silver started making a comeback - those coins are burning a hole in my pocket!!

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    Micro$oft Hating Radge
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    My bank closed my account over Bitcoin. Banks and the government don't like it one "bit". I was transferring money from my bank to a company called Circle, then buying the, directly that way. Now Circle as even stopped Bitcoin. Bank wanted to know where my money was going etc. Told them Bitcoin and a few weeks later I had a month to clear my account and SD box.
    What bank was it if you don't mind me asking.
    Charlie don't surf !

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    What bank was it if you don't mind me asking.
    It was 5/3 Bank. Think they are based out of Ohio. The bank manager from my local branch was actually tried to fight my corner, but corporate had the fraud department looking in to it and wanted my account closed. The experience spooked me, didn't like it one bit. At the end of the day it's your money to do with what you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wannabehibee View Post
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    About time silver started making a comeback - those coins are burning a hole in my pocket!!
    Tell me about it, this bear market in metals is due an upturn. Hoping spring we see a move upwards. Shocked to see platinum so low right now.

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    Just for those who know about as much as me.

    Bitcoin was hit by a double whammy this week. On Tuesday, Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan declared that Bitcoin is a fraud that will “blow up”. Then, just this morning, a Bitcoin exchange in China announced that it would shut its doorsin response to verbal pressure from regulators and an uncertain regulatory environment.

    Don’t ya just love it when bad news breaks on Bitcoin? I sure do! It creates a buying opportunity. After all, just look at what happened after the last five bouts of bad news:

    In each case, the Bitcoin exchange rate dropped—very briefly—and then climbed higher with renewed vigor. Heck it, doubled from $2400 to $4800 in just the past month! But here’s a the real question: Does either of these bad news events have legs? Does it spell the end of Bitcoin adoption and enthusiasm, at least for now?
    After all, if it were discovered that the math behind Bitcoin were flawed, and that anyone could create forged coins, the empire would come tumbling down. In my book, this would constitute a crisis. But what about now? Do these two damning events—and a 35% correction in the past week—constitute a long-term crisis? To answer, we must first determine if public fears over these two events are credible…
    China and JP Morgan: (a) A frightened authority (b) Simple Ignorance
    Like most governments, the Chinese are concerned that the growing flight to Bitcoin is impacting liquidity of their national currency.
    [A superb presentation by Andreas Antonopoulos—Click it, after you read this article]
    . They are also concerned about the large number of Bitcoin exchanges that operate outside of a tight regulatory framework. They obscure the flow of money in and out of the country and they are a clear scapegoat for tax evasion or other criminal activity. Like any agency charged with financial regulation, the Chinese seek to reign in and regulate these maverick exchanges.
    It is interesting to note that the Chinese government is not discouraging Bitcoin mining or even personal savings—only the proliferation of unlicensed exchanges and quasi-anonymous users. After all, More than 50% of all mining is done in China, and it helps to balance the loss of liquidity in the national currency.
    Whether the popular adoption of Bitcoin is a good or bad thing for governments is a hot debate topic. (I feel strongly that a country’s loss of control of its own reserve and monetary policy is a good thing for citizens and government). But regardless of your position on my contrarian philosophy, here is a fact that is less controversial…
    When governments attempt to restrict an activity that cannot be economically monitored or enforced -- or at least when they attempt to do it in a way that leaves no legal relief valve for hobbyists, business, commerce, research or NGOs -- they ultimately fuel the activity that they set out to stifle. Ultimately, if the public cannot discern a reasonable basis for government censorship or excessive restrictions, it leads to interest, innovation, adoption and the emergence of hot new markets.
    Consider, again, the graph of Bitcoin price -vs- Bad news events at the top of this page.
    On each date highlighted above, there was a damning piece of information that should cause early adopters to reconsider their enthusiasm for Bitcoin. In fact, the Hearn Dump really should have ended the whole party. A core developer sold off his entire BTC savings and claimed that the experiment was a failure. Hepublished an article with his reasons for believing that Bitcoin was dead.
    But the graph demonstrates that each piece of “bad news” fueled a miniature rally. That's because Bitcoin has none of the elements of a pyramid scheme. It is not an MLM and it cannot be manufactured or controlled by any organization. Rather, it is an exercise in pure supply, demand and market recognition. It is pure adoption mechanism that leads to a two-sided network. It’s benefits multiply as more users join the party.
    What about Jamie Dimon at JP Morgan? He says that Bitcoin will crash.
    Bitcoin has had a rocky road these first 8 years. Major exchanges have been bankrupt or worse, enormous criminal conspiracies were among the early adopters, the SEC has prohibited the creation of an ETF based on cryptocurrency, rogue spin-off coins are driving a wedge among users, and there are serious problems related to scaling and governance. A casual observer might wonder who is in control and who can be held responsible? After all, the idea of an economic mechanism that is altered by democratic—but decentralized—factors is new and radical. How can Bitcoin evolve, adapt and grow in the absence of an authority at its heart?
    This confusion arises from the newness and unfamiliarity of blockchain architecture. Skepticism is natural. Indeed, Bitcoin is guided by an authority, but it doesn't reside at the center of the network. It resides at the edges. This is the concept behind Proof-of-Stake and Proof-of-Work. Unlike a classic authority, your will matters just as much as anyone else’s. It is exceptionally democratic, self-enforcing, and resistant to gaming.
    This is a difficult concept to wrap our heads around, because it is so different than we were taught and it is different than we have experienced for centuries. For this reason, Jamie Dimon’s statement that there is nothing behind Bitcoin presents a buy opportunity for individuals who were late to the table. Jamie may not yet understand intrinsic value, but we can educate ourselves. Bitcoin has more standing behind it than the US dollar.
    ... But don't take this as investment advice. Bitcoin should not be thought of as an investment. It is the future of money. Speculation (both day trading and long term buy-&-hold) act to retard the eventual adoption of Bitcoin as a serious monetary instrument. Although I have Bitcoin, I do not encourage people to think of it as an investment. It is more important that it be used for products, services, loans, to settle debts, escrow, interbank exchange, etc. When this fraction of Bitcoin activity exceeds the fraction driven by savers and speculators, the dominos will begin to fall rapidly.
    My analysis hasn't changed in the 2 years since I wrote this article:
    Bitcoin Adoption: A Series of Reactions, http://awildduck.com/?p=3121

    Articles about Jamie Dimon and JP Morgan...

    1. Jamie Dimon: Bitcoin Is A Fraud
    2. John McAfee: I challenge Jamie Dimon’s bitcoin skepticism
    3. Crypto Is Here to Stay (Whatever Jamie Dimon Might Say)

    Can we draw a conclusion? Certainly, we can. And, we can toss in a prediction. It’s not even a high risk prediction. The recent pullback has no fundamental basis. No legs at all. The two “bad news” are not just a

    red herring—they present a buying opportunity. If I were allowed to give investor advice (I am not; and I don’t), I would express my opinion with more verve and obvious conviction.
    Caveat Emptor (Everything comes with a disclaimer)…
    I am a Bitcoin educator, proponent, early adopter and blockchain consultant. But here is the contradiction: Although I am also a Bitcoin investor, I discourage others from treating Bitcoin as an investment. Use it, but please don’t save it!
    Why do I discourage others from investing in Bitcoin?
    It’s not that I don’t believe that Bitcoin will increase in exchange value. It will rise spectacularly, as adoption grows. But Bitcoin will not become ubiquitous and trusted until the majority of coins are recycled into the market for payments, settlement, loans, interbank transfers, escrow, contract settlement, etc. That is, its use for business and commerce must exceed the fraction of trades that are driven by savers and speculators. Until this happens, Bitcoin will remain volatile. It will be the subject of suspicion. It won’t be used for large settlements and it won’t become the money itself.
    Speculation acts against fluidity. It won’t block the eventual acceptance of Bitcoin as a global currency. Hoarding is not a deal stopper. But It retards momentum and delays the inevitable.

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