The sparkle of the emerald green

[SkyeHibs]

Another season has kicked off with the faithful of Hibernian buying season tickets in record numbers. Hope springs eternal at the start of every season and this one is no different.

Is this to be the one where Mowbray’s growing experience allied to that of the team’s development will reap a rich harvest of games and silverware won?

There is no doubt that the last two years have seen the mood of the Hibernian support improve as they watch with pleasure an exciting brand of football at Easter Road. The team has played with a style that we the fans expect to see teams in the famous green jerseys deliver. Fast flowing football, with an emphasis on attack.

Changed days indeed from the previous regime under Bobby Williamson, whilst at the same time, with the move to Straiton now off the agenda, the relationship between the club and the fans has improved.
What though can we expect from the team and club both this season and beyond?

Whilst the club has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of years, yes the football is attractive and we are trading in the black.

However the question has to be put where is the long-term vision for Hibernian?

What can this famous club achieve?

Can we aspire to being a leading club that can compete and win honours or shall we as we have been over the last couple of years be a team that wins plaudits but cannot translate our efforts into winning trophies?

We have seen our squad diminished by important departures, particularly in the striking department. You can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear and in this case it is obvious that the purse strings have to be loosened if Mowbray is to find the nugget of a potential 20 goals plus a year forward. Yes we have exciting young talent with the likes of Fletcher, whilst the Moroccan artist Benji still remains something of an unknown quantity.

The league was more interesting last year than was the case for many a long year. In our case, European qualification kept our hopes high until virtually the last kick of the ball.

We are aware that last year was one of record attendances for the SPL. The growing box office appeal of the SPL no doubt encouraged Setanta to increase their exposure to Scottish football.

Our rivals have just witnessed a crowd of over 28,000 for a European qualification game at Murrayfield. Way beyond the kind of numbers that have been seen by them in forty years for European games. Still perhaps someway off the kind of numbers that will turn-up in Glasgow, but at least demonstrating there is substantial demand for football in the Capital city.

Perhaps some of the reasons that Hibernian are seeing a sustained increase in attendances is that there is some hope that the team can compete for honours and that of course we like what we see on the park.

As someone who grew up in Edinburgh in the 1960’s, there was a belief at that time that Hibs could win honours. The famous five were not yet a distant memory to Edinburgh, Easter Road played to big crowds on a regular basis and if the stories are to be believed the stars of Hibernian used to wind-up the old firm players with stories of the smaller pay packets they were on compared to the League winners at Hibernian.

Contrast that with the mood of the last few years with a belief in Scottish football that only two teams could win the league. It really is little wonder that some clubs struggled to put bums on seats when you admit defeat before a ball is kicked.

The goings on in the West End of Edinburgh have provided much entertainment over the last eighteen months, but mirth aside, Hearts have mounted a challenge to the supremacy of the old firm. I would not for one minute suggest we should go down the road of the Romanov revolution, we all know that Romanov could lose interest with his maroon play thing and leave the submarine “HOMFC” high and dry.

What does remain crystal clear though is that the followers of Hearts are turning up in big numbers.

Where does our potential lie?

If we look today, even with increased attendances we still see on average 25% of the home crowd that is witnessed at Parkhead. Never in the past has there been such a gap between the respective supports.

David Ross’s excellent book “The Roar of the crowd” details league attendances every year. I have put these figures in to ten-year blocks for the post-war period and show the average league attendance as follows:

Team.........1946-56........1956-66.......1966-76.......1976-86......1986-96

Rangers........35,875..........31,769..........30,234..........21,272..........39,882
Celtic...........27,049..........20,654..........30,356..........24,528..........27,720
Hibs.............26,250..........14,135..........13,031..........8,292..........10,158
Hearts..........24,277..........18,203..........11,505..........9,637..........13,181

50 year averages

Rangers....... 31,806
Celtic.......... 26,061
Hibs.............14,372
Hearts..........15,360

I would draw a number of conclusions from this.

Celtic and Rangers today have a considerably greater pulling power than has been the case in the last fifty years. The cult of success and the brand appeal together with an improvement in facilities have been key factors. Their average gates at the end of the decade are greater than the immediate post-war period. The so called golden age of Scottish football

Other clubs have seen their “market share” fall. Many football fans today no longer support their local club but either of the old firm

There is a clear coloration between success and crowds. Hibs biggest crowds in this fifty year period both actual and relative to the other clubs was during the time of the famous five, Celtic’s was at the time of the Lisbon Lions. Fans want to associate with clubs that are winners

Football crowds are increasing beyond the historic averages in the current period. Football is more popular in Scotland than ever today with families being encouraged along rather than the traditional male dominated environment

There would appear to be no reason that Hibs could not increase the fan base at Easter Road. It has been done in Glasgow, there is evidence it is happening at Tynecastle. For this to happen the fans would have to believe the club can be a winner.

From a timing point of view, the gap between the old firm and the rest is already closing. The days of both the Glasgow clubs making multi million pound transfer offers for players are over.

It is my belief that with the exciting young team we have today there need not be a massive increase in spending in order that Hibs can move onto the next level.

We also need to take account of where we are. There has been important momentum in gates over the last two years. Disenchantment at the club’s progress could quickly see this reverse. The club needs to continue to improve to sustain the momentum.

That is why I have argued for the capacity at Easter Road to be lifted. At the same time, to quote a Labour Minister, The East Stand is “not fit for purpose.”

The club must be able to present a vision to the fans of a great future on and off the park. A winning mentality is required. We must be serious about collecting silverware on a reasonably regular basis. Once every twenty years will not do. At the same time, we must be competing on the European stage. It is not acceptable that we are not in Europe and frankly it is not acceptable that we have now been put out of the Intertoto Cup twice.

Hibernian are a European Capital City Club and must act as such.


Edinburgh is a dynamic economy, the city is growing and sees itself as a European player. So must our football team.

[jimmyhibs]

i think the average hibs fan expects too much ian. why should we be challenging for honours every season? we've only won the scottish cup once in 104 years. we last won the mickey mouse cup way way back in 1991 and the league? well once in 51 years does not a chamionship challenge make. why don't we just accept that we're mid-table, top 3 or 4 now and again team? are we really that much better than the likes of aberdeen, dundee utd and kilmarnock?
sure we have purple patches every now and again. every team does. but when the likes of st. miren and motherwell can get their hands on the scottish cup when even at best, the famous five couldn't i think sometimes we need to take a reality check.

[bigmanandy]

I have to agree with JimmyHibs on this one if you look at Rangers and Celtic then they are a certainty to win silverware season in season out, but now there is another team that has come into the frame and will probaly split the OF and that team is the Yams, the next best team in the league has to be between us and Aberdeen and the chance of us winning any silverware is going to be very rare from now on....but if we can get the right players and the right mentality in the team then we do have a chace to win things even if it is once in a while.

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by jimmyhibs

i think the average hibs fan expects too much ian. why should we be challenging for honours every season? we've only won the scottish cup once in 104 years. we last won the mickey mouse cup way way back in 1991 and the league? well once in 51 years does not a chamionship challenge make. why don't we just accept that we're mid-table, top 3 or 4 now and again team? are we really that much better than the likes of aberdeen, dundee utd and kilmarnock?
sure we have purple patches every now and again. every team does. but when the likes of st. miren and motherwell can get their hands on the scottish cup when even at best, the famous five couldn't i think sometimes we need to take a reality check.

I don't agree Jimmy. We have to have ambition as we had in the 1950's and much of that was due to the Swan/McCartney combination.

There areperiods beyond that we looked as if we could break through such as under Stein then Turnbull who had a good partnership with Hart.

We are a big club from Scotland's capital city. A'deen perhaps under achieve as well but we are a bigger club than Dun Utd and Kilmarnock. We should be of a similar standing to clubs from similar sized countries/cities in Europe.

[Mapleleaf Hibee]

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but to compete in any business in this day you have to have a few things going for you (1) a vision of what the future can hold for your business (2) a nerve to see this vision then act upon it (3) a will to invest in your vision and make it a reallity. The present set up at ER has none of these, we want to compete against the OF we bring in players who know one has heard of and let our good players leave of next to nothing. There is a well know saying " You only get what you pay for, you pay nothing you get nothing" Sir Tom Farmer helped this club in its darkest hour and l will alawys be in his dept but with this mans business knowledge and means do you not think he could have done better. I will always be a Hibs man till the day l die but we will always be a small club because we are run by small minded people with no ambition, sorry but the truth hurts. Where has the extra money promised from the Deeks and GaryO transfer gone to. Talk is cheap and that and all we do is talk.

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by bigmanandy

I have to agree with JimmyHibs on this one if you look at Rangers and Celtic then they are a certainty to win silverware season in season out, but now there is another team that has come into the frame and will probaly split the OF and that team is the Yams, the next best team in the league has to be between us and Aberdeen and the chance of us winning any silverware is going to be very rare from now on....but if we can get the right players and the right mentality in the team then we do have a chace to win things even if it is once in a while.

I was talking about long-term potential and fanbase which I beleieve to be bigger than it is today. As my article shows in the ten years post the war our average gate was as big as Celtic's. Might have had something to do with winning the league three times. My point is unless we look as if we can close the gap and mount a challenge then we will not grow the club.

Look as if we could become winners and we will. I would use as evidence the increase in Hearts gates, not least the 28,000 at Murrayfield last week.

[jimmyhibs]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs

I don't agree Jimmy. We have to have ambition as we had in the 1950's and much of that was due to the Swan/McCartney combination.

There areperiods beyond that we looked as if we could break through such as under Stein then Turnbull who had a good partnership with Hart.

We are a big club from Scotland's capital city. A'deen perhaps under achieve as well but we are a bigger club than Dun Utd and Kilmarnock. We should be of a similar standing to clubs from similar sized countries/cities in Europe.

it was a much more even playing field then. (nae slope jokes please)

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by MAPLE LEAF HIBEE

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but to compete in any business in this day you have to have a few things going for you (1) a vision of what the future can hold for your business (2) a nerve to see this vision then act upon it (3) a will to invest in your vision and make it a reallity. The present set up at ER has none of these, we want to compete against the OF we bring in players who know one has heard of and let our good players leave of next to nothing. There is a well know saying " You only get what you pay for, you pay nothing you get nothing" Sir Tom Farmer helped this club in its darkest hour and l will alawys be in his dept but with this mans business knowledge and means do you not think he could have done better. I will always be a Hibs man till the day l die but we will always be a small club because we are run by small minded people with no ambition, sorry but the truth hurts. Where has the extra money promised from the Deeks and GaryO transfer gone to. Talk is cheap and that and all we do is talk.

That is what I am asking for. Celtic and Rangers are now drawing average gates the likes they would not have dreamt of in the past. The man with the bunnet McCann had a huge part to play in the transformation of Celtic.

I am arguing for Hibs to acquire ambition and a strategy. The current custodians should develop that or allow others who have the resources to do so.

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by jimmyhibs

it was a much more even playing field then. (nae slope jokes please)

Jimmy it is what we make it. There is potential to grow the fan base. We have to offer the carrot of success.

[bigmanandy]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs

I was talking about long-term potential and fanbase which I beleieve to be bigger than it is today. As my article shows in the ten years post the war our average gate was as big as Celtic's. Might have had something to do with winning the league three times. My point is unless we look as if we can close the gap and mount a challenge then we will not grow the club.

Look as if we could become winners and we will. I would use as evidence the increase in Hearts gates, not least the 28,000 at Murrayfield last week.

In the long term it looks pretty good i mean our season tickets have gone up and more and more fans are turning up for games, oviously our fanbase is not as big as Hearts, but i think if we won something like the league in say the next 10 years then our fanbase would grow just like hearts and we would slowly but shoorly get rid of the debt, the fans would come back the ER in there numbers and we could build a bigger stadium and would fill it week in week out, I expected only about 30,000 jambos at Murryfeild but i was thinking just looking at our fanbase and looking at those numbers then that would be great to have those numbers turning up for a game in Edinburgh.

My dad has been going to Hibs matches all his life since he was 5 years old and hes now 54 and some of the storys he comes out with are just amazing like how he remembers the hords and hords of Hibees turning up for games and how he remembers going along to watch the famous five, how i would of loved to be there watching this.....thats exactly what i want back at ER sometime in my lifetime as do we all i think....And now i am hoping with this new training facility that we are going to bring in loads of young talent that are out there on Scotlands streets and local parks and one day they will be playing in the green and white of Hibs winning tropheys and bringing the excitment to football again and if that excitment is there then all these fans we are talking about from the famous five era will appear again and we will have massive crowds and excitment in the Scottish league once again.

[jimmyhibs]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs

Jimmy it is what we make it. There is potential to grow the fan base. We have to offer the carrot of success.

do we get in a knight like romanov? clasp the cheeks of our arse at the end of every season wondering if he's going to cash in his chips and piss off back to money launderville?
i agree that stf and MR. petrie should/could do more to help hibs become a major force in scotland. but i don't want it at the expense of the future assurance of the club.

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by bigmanandy

In the long term it looks pretty good i mean our season tickets have gone up and more and more fans are turning up for games, oviously our fanbase is not as big as Hearts, but i think if we won something like the league in say the next 10 years then our fanbase would grow just like hearts and we would slowly but shoorly get rid of the debt, the fans would come back the ER in there numbers and we could build a bigger stadium and would fill it week in week out, I expected only about 30,000 jambos at Murryfeild but i was thinking just looking at our fanbase and looking at those numbers then that would be great to have those numbers turning up for a game in Edinburgh.

My dad has been going to Hibs matches all his life since he was 5 years old and hes now 54 and some of the storys he comes out with are just amazing like how he remembers the hords and hords of Hibees turning up for games and how he remembers going along to watch the famous five, how i would of loved to be there watching this.....thats exactly what i want back at ER sometime in my lifetime as do we all i think....And now i am hoping with this new training facility that we are going to bring in loads of young talent that are out there on Scotlands streets and local parks and one day they will be playing in the green and white of Hibs winning tropheys and bringing the excitment to football again and if that excitment is there then all these fans we are talking about from the famous five era will appear again and we will have massive crowds and excitment in the Scottish league once again.

You see that's the point there are bits of the strategy there. It has to be pulled together and marketed. We were as big as Celtic in crowd terms after the war. It is because we were winning. There is no doubt thay have stolen a march in the last 15 years or so. We have to build the brand of Hibernian. What my figures also show is that Hearts are hardly a bigger club than Hibs. Over a 50 year period there is an average difference of about 1000 fans per game.

[bigmanandy]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs

You see that's the point there are bits of the strategy there. It has to be pulled together and marketed. We were as big as Celtic in crowd terms after the war. It is because we were winning. There is no doubt thay have stolen a march in the last 15 years or so. We have to build the brand of Hibernian. What my figures also show is that Hearts are hardly a bigger club than Hibs. Over a 50 year period there is an average difference of about 1000 fans per game.

The other thing is will young children want to support us or will they cross the city and support Hertz because of what is happening with the Romanov Revalution and how apparantly he is making them into a bigger team, i mean people have gone on about how he will leave and leave Hertz in debt like i have said but i am not too sure now i keep telling myself he will leave but at the same time i am not sure, but as we did have the support as big as Celtic after the war then why cant we have that now, if we got a team together and started winning games then we would not have a problem but i would call all those people glory hunters because they are only supporting us because we are winning. I mean we were orignated as from the Irish but Celtic seem to have a large Irish fanbase unlike us if we had that then im sure we would have the fans.

[jimmyhibs]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs

You see that's the point there are bits of the strategy there. It has to be pulled together and marketed. We were as big as Celtic in crowd terms after the war. It is because we were winning. There is no doubt thay have stolen a march in the last 15 years or so. We have to build the brand of Hibernian. What my figures also show is that Hearts are hardly a bigger club than Hibs. Over a 50 year period there is an average difference of about 1000 fans per game.

i think hibs might've missed the boat by not playing the irish card. obviously this has drawbacks as celtic have found out. but marketed correctly, we could've drawn bigger crowds from ireland.
celtic's fan base/ whole existence depends on the ireland card. ok the vast amjority have never been to ireland, but as i said marketed in the right way, easter road would be a fair size bigger than it is just now.

[SlovSam]

'Lies,dammed lies and statistics indeed'.
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Your statistics are of course accurate but they are both a little out of date (ie they miss the last 10 years) and and are a little 'misleading' due to the demographic and social changes that occurrred in the 1970's/80's and the stadium reconstruction that occurred in the 1990's.

All these changes combined changed the face of Scottish football and generated an entirely 'new beast' whereby glory seeking wannabees now had most importantly the diposable income and to a lesser extent a transport network combined with car ownership that would allow them to travel long distances to support the 'gruesome twosome' instead of their local team.


This together with stadium improvements (ie seating) resulted in the more representative figures of the last 10 years of 1996-2006 of:

Celtic:57,000, 10 year average crowd generating a Turnover of £55 million per annum.

'Scotland's Shame': 48,000, 10 year average crowd generating a Turnover of £45million per annum.

Hearts: 13,000, 10 year average crowd generating a Turnover of £8 million per annum.

Hibs: 11,000, 10 year average crowd generating a Turnover of £7 million

Aberdeen:12,000,10 year average crowd , generating a Turnover of £7 million

I'd absolutely agree that 'success breeds crowd increases'
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and that Hibs as representatives of a dynamic city undersell themselves
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and need to think on a much bigger scale
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However sadly I disagree that such huge crowd and turnover differentials can be breached by Hibs making some small investment to get to the next level
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and while stadium expansion is coming ever closer I still think that last years average gate of 14,000 means that a 17,500 capacity stadium is still suitable.

Though on a positive note 'Build it and they will come' is a high risk but interesting concept.
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[Greenmachine]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs

Another season has kicked off with the faithful of Hibernian buying season tickets in record numbers. Hope springs eternal at the start of every season and this one is no different.

Is this to be the one where Mowbray’s growing experience allied to that of the team’s development will reap a rich harvest of games and silverware won?

There is no doubt that the last two years have seen the mood of the Hibernian support improve as they watch with pleasure an exciting brand of football at Easter Road. The team has played with a style that we the fans expect to see teams in the famous green jerseys deliver. Fast flowing football, with an emphasis on attack.

Changed days indeed from the previous regime under Bobby Williamson, whilst at the same time, with the move to Straiton now off the agenda, the relationship between the club and the fans has improved.
What though can we expect from the team and club both this season and beyond?

Whilst the club has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of years, yes the football is attractive and we are trading in the black.

However the question has to be put where is the long-term vision for Hibernian?

What can this famous club achieve?

Can we aspire to being a leading club that can compete and win honours or shall we as we have been over the last couple of years be a team that wins plaudits but cannot translate our efforts into winning trophies?

We have seen our squad diminished by important departures, particularly in the striking department. You can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear and in this case it is obvious that the purse strings have to be loosened if Mowbray is to find the nugget of a potential 20 goals plus a year forward. Yes we have exciting young talent with the likes of Fletcher, whilst the Moroccan artist Benji still remains something of an unknown quantity.

The league was more interesting last year than was the case for many a long year. In our case, European qualification kept our hopes high until virtually the last kick of the ball.

We are aware that last year was one of record attendances for the SPL. The growing box office appeal of the SPL no doubt encouraged Setanta to increase their exposure to Scottish football.

Our rivals have just witnessed a crowd of over 28,000 for a European qualification game at Murrayfield. Way beyond the kind of numbers that have been seen by them in forty years for European games. Still perhaps someway off the kind of numbers that will turn-up in Glasgow, but at least demonstrating there is substantial demand for football in the Capital city.

Perhaps some of the reasons that Hibernian are seeing a sustained increase in attendances is that there is some hope that the team can compete for honours and that of course we like what we see on the park.

As someone who grew up in Edinburgh in the 1960’s, there was a belief at that time that Hibs could win honours. The famous five were not yet a distant memory to Edinburgh, Easter Road played to big crowds on a regular basis and if the stories are to be believed the stars of Hibernian used to wind-up the old firm players with stories of the smaller pay packets they were on compared to the League winners at Hibernian.

Contrast that with the mood of the last few years with a belief in Scottish football that only two teams could win the league. It really is little wonder that some clubs struggled to put bums on seats when you admit defeat before a ball is kicked.

The goings on in the West End of Edinburgh have provided much entertainment over the last eighteen months, but mirth aside, Hearts have mounted a challenge to the supremacy of the old firm. I would not for one minute suggest we should go down the road of the Romanov revolution, we all know that Romanov could lose interest with his maroon play thing and leave the submarine “HOMFC” high and dry.

What does remain crystal clear though is that the followers of Hearts are turning up in big numbers.

Where does our potential lie?

If we look today, even with increased attendances we still see on average 25% of the home crowd that is witnessed at Parkhead. Never in the past has there been such a gap between the respective supports.

David Ross’s excellent book “The Roar of the crowd” details league attendances every year. I have put these figures in to ten-year blocks for the post-war period and show the average league attendance as follows:

Team.........1946-56........1956-66.......1966-76.......1976-86......1986-96

Rangers........35,875..........31,769..........30,234..........21,272..........39,882
Celtic...........27,049..........20,654..........30,356..........24,528..........27,720
Hibs.............26,250..........14,135..........13,031..........8,292..........10,158
Hearts..........24,277..........18,203..........11,505..........9,637..........13,181

50 year averages

Rangers....... 31,806
Celtic.......... 26,061
Hibs.............14,372
Hearts..........15,360

I would draw a number of conclusions from this.

Celtic and Rangers today have a considerably greater pulling power than has been the case in the last fifty years. The cult of success and the brand appeal together with an improvement in facilities have been key factors. Their average gates at the end of the decade are greater than the immediate post-war period. The so called golden age of Scottish football

Other clubs have seen their “market share” fall. Many football fans today no longer support their local club but either of the old firm

There is a clear coloration between success and crowds. Hibs biggest crowds in this fifty year period both actual and relative to the other clubs was during the time of the famous five, Celtic’s was at the time of the Lisbon Lions. Fans want to associate with clubs that are winners

Football crowds are increasing beyond the historic averages in the current period. Football is more popular in Scotland than ever today with families being encouraged along rather than the traditional male dominated environment

There would appear to be no reason that Hibs could not increase the fan base at Easter Road. It has been done in Glasgow, there is evidence it is happening at Tynecastle. For this to happen the fans would have to believe the club can be a winner.

From a timing point of view, the gap between the old firm and the rest is already closing. The days of both the Glasgow clubs making multi million pound transfer offers for players are over.

It is my belief that with the exciting young team we have today there need not be a massive increase in spending in order that Hibs can move onto the next level.

We also need to take account of where we are. There has been important momentum in gates over the last two years. Disenchantment at the club’s progress could quickly see this reverse. The club needs to continue to improve to sustain the momentum.

That is why I have argued for the capacity at Easter Road to be lifted. At the same time, to quote a Labour Minister, The East Stand is “not fit for purpose.”

The club must be able to present a vision to the fans of a great future on and off the park. A winning mentality is required. We must be serious about collecting silverware on a reasonably regular basis. Once every twenty years will not do. At the same time, we must be competing on the European stage. It is not acceptable that we are not in Europe and frankly it is not acceptable that we have now been put out of the Intertoto Cup twice.

Hibernian are a European Capital City Club and m