When The Going Gets Tough, The Six Pack Gets Going

[Baron von Hibee]

Title sums up my feelings on what has happened today. The one bit of Collins' statement I agree with is he's taken this job as far as he can. To me his resignation reflects a recognition the job is too big for him, he hasn't the experience to deal with it and frankly, he's making an ever increasing mess of it.

Afraid I don't buy the limited budget rubbish. Thats not to say I don't agree 100% that with the profits made in the summer, the board could and should be paying more for players (and if there is one positive from this, maybe it will be to force the board to release the purse strings a little to persuade a new manager to take the job). However, several points wreck his argument for me:

1. Why take the job in the first place if 15 months on its a big enough issue to be a resigning matter? He knew full well the limited resources his predecessors had to deal with.
2. Even if he was made promises then that haven't been kept, he knew full well the financial restrictions he was faced with when he was allegedly quite happy to stay and didn't want the QPR job just a few months ago.
3. He hasn't had much money, but he's had more than Mowbray. Simple fact is he's done far less well at spending it - 250k has bought a totally inadequate replacement for Mowbray's 5k purchase and there are plenty more examples. As I've said on here before, do we honestly believe the superior team Mark McGhee has built at Motherwell cost more to assemble than Collins' summer signings? No. The flipside of this is Hearts ongoing proof that spending more doesn't buy success - they may not be spending what their fans want, but Vlad is spending more than Petrie, to get a place in the bottom half of the table. Money does NOT buy success on its own - Motherwell and Hearts in their own ways prove the quality of management and players are more important and are not always related to the cost of that quality.

Likewise, I don't buy the idea the players are to blame. Clearly, Collins has lost the dressing room again for the 2nd time in under a year. Personally didn't buy the blaming the players view last time - if over a dozen people share a view vs one, you've got to think they may have a point. However, there was at least the shred of an excuse that that 'wasn't his team'. It is now, yet even his players don't seem to have been wanting to work with him.

Yes, he won the CIS Cup and irrespective of how much credit we give Mowbray for that, Collins will always deserve credit for giving us that great day. Beyond that however, there have been few highs and far too many problems in his short tenure. Another inexperienced manager was a risk - this time more so, as Mowbray came in with nothing to wreck, Collins inherited a precious legacy which I'd argue he's now more or less destroyed (admittedly, with some help from the board). His inexperience has shown through every time things have got difficult and today reflects the final admission he can't cut it as Hibs manager - but of course he's far too arrogant to admit that.

Only alternative is he's been offered another job elsewhere, but I'd be stunned if the SFA's ambitions are so low that they'd want Collins, and if not where else would? If he's got another job, at least have the decency to be honest and admit it, rather than reeling out an array of tawdry excuses.

I never wanted Collins to get the job and won't pretend otherwise - unfortunately my fears about the appointment have to a large extent been realised. However, I'd probably have stuck with him for a little longer, as things were not yet too disasterous and there look to be few decent alternative options - frankly, beyond Mark McGhee I can see few obvious candidates who would be an improvement (Yogi certainly would not). Now he's gone though I'm struggling to feel too devastated - maybe it is for the best before things get really bad, and at least if we can get a manager in quickly it gives him a chance to rectify some of the summer signing disasters in the January window.

At least he's secured his place in history - surely now the worst Hibs manager ever to win us silverware?

[Thomson_19]

Originally Posted by Baron von Hibee
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Title sums up my feelings on what has happened today. The one bit of Collins' statement I agree with is he's taken this job as far as he can. To me his resignation reflects a recognition the job is too big for him, he hasn't the experience to deal with it and frankly, he's making an ever increasing mess of it.

Afraid I don't buy the limited budget rubbish. Thats not to say I don't agree 100% that with the profits made in the summer, the board could and should be paying more for players (and if there is one positive from this, maybe it will be to force the board to release the purse strings a little to persuade a new manager to take the job). However, several points wreck his argument for me:

1. Why take the job in the first place if 15 months on its a big enough issue to be a resigning matter? He knew full well the limited resources his predecessors had to deal with.
2. Even if he was made promises then that haven't been kept, he knew full well the financial restrictions he was faced with when he was allegedly quite happy to stay and didn't want the QPR job just a few months ago.
3. He hasn't had much money, but he's had more than Mowbray. Simple fact is he's done far less well at spending it - 250k has bought a totally inadequate replacement for Mowbray's 5k purchase and there are plenty more examples. As I've said on here before, do we honestly believe the superior team Mark McGhee has built at Motherwell cost more to assemble than Collins' summer signings? No. The flipside of this is Hearts ongoing proof that spending more doesn't buy success - they may not be spending what their fans want, but Vlad is spending more than Petrie, to get a place in the bottom half of the table. Money does NOT buy success on its own - Motherwell and Hearts in their own ways prove the quality of management and players are more important and are not always related to the cost of that quality.

Likewise, I don't buy the idea the players are to blame. Clearly, Collins has lost the dressing room again for the 2nd time in under a year. Personally didn't buy the blaming the players view last time - if over a dozen people share a view vs one, you've got to think they may have a point. However, there was at least the shred of an excuse that that 'wasn't his team'. It is now, yet even his players don't seem to have been wanting to work with him.

Yes, he won the CIS Cup and irrespective of how much credit we give Mowbray for that, Collins will always deserve credit for giving us that great day. Beyond that however, there have been few highs and far too many problems in his short tenure. Another inexperienced manager was a risk - this time more so, as Mowbray came in with nothing to wreck, Collins inherited a precious legacy which I'd argue he's now more or less destroyed (admittedly, with some help from the board). His inexperience has shown through every time things have got difficult and today reflects the final admission he can't cut it as Hibs manager - but of course he's far too arrogant to admit that.

Only alternative is he's been offered another job elsewhere, but I'd be stunned if the SFA's ambitions are so low that they'd want Collins, and if not where else would? If he's got another job, at least have the decency to be honest and admit it, rather than reeling out an array of tawdry excuses.

I never wanted Collins to get the job and won't pretend otherwise - unfortunately my fears about the appointment have to a large extent been realised. However, I'd probably have stuck with him for a little longer, as things were not yet too disasterous and there look to be few decent alternative options - frankly, beyond Mark McGhee I can see few obvious candidates who would be an improvement (Yogi certainly would not). Now he's gone though I'm struggling to feel too devastated - maybe it is for the best before things get really bad, and at least if we can get a manager in quickly it gives him a chance to rectify some of the summer signing disasters in the January window.

At least he's secured his place in history - surely now the worst Hibs manager ever to win us silverware?

Perfect post until the last sentence, surely Miller was worse?

[tortohibee]

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top post and im sure the majority of us have these sentiments

[Baron von Hibee]

Originally Posted by Thomson_19
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Perfect post until the last sentence, surely Miller was worse?

Even less entertaining perhaps, but he achieved more in league terms (albeit he did oversee far worse seasons than Collins too).

[Forzahibs]

Are Motherwell superior to us ?

[hibeebenji]

Just glad he's gone before he could run Deano out the club like he did Ivan & Mikey Stewart. Nae doubt he'd have replaced him with another superstar signing like Kerr and O'Brien!!!!

[CraigHFC]

Originally Posted by Forzahibs
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Are Motherwell superior to us ?

This season as a football team, yes.

As a football club, probably not.

[Stew the Hibee]

Originally Posted by Baron von Hibee
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Title sums up my feelings on what has happened today. The one bit of Collins' statement I agree with is he's taken this job as far as he can. To me his resignation reflects a recognition the job is too big for him, he hasn't the experience to deal with it and frankly, he's making an ever increasing mess of it.

Afraid I don't buy the limited budget rubbish. Thats not to say I don't agree 100% that with the profits made in the summer, the board could and should be paying more for players (and if there is one positive from this, maybe it will be to force the board to release the purse strings a little to persuade a new manager to take the job). However, several points wreck his argument for me:

1. Why take the job in the first place if 15 months on its a big enough issue to be a resigning matter? He knew full well the limited resources his predecessors had to deal with.
2. Even if he was made promises then that haven't been kept, he knew full well the financial restrictions he was faced with when he was allegedly quite happy to stay and didn't want the QPR job just a few months ago.
3. He hasn't had much money, but he's had more than Mowbray. Simple fact is he's done far less well at spending it - 250k has bought a totally inadequate replacement for Mowbray's 5k purchase and there are plenty more examples. As I've said on here before, do we honestly believe the superior team Mark McGhee has built at Motherwell cost more to assemble than Collins' summer signings? No. The flipside of this is Hearts ongoing proof that spending more doesn't buy success - they may not be spending what their fans want, but Vlad is spending more than Petrie, to get a place in the bottom half of the table. Money does NOT buy success on its own - Motherwell and Hearts in their own ways prove the quality of management and players are more important and are not always related to the cost of that quality.

Likewise, I don't buy the idea the players are to blame. Clearly, Collins has lost the dressing room again for the 2nd time in under a year. Personally didn't buy the blaming the players view last time - if over a dozen people share a view vs one, you've got to think they may have a point. However, there was at least the shred of an excuse that that 'wasn't his team'. It is now, yet even his players don't seem to have been wanting to work with him.

Yes, he won the CIS Cup and irrespective of how much credit we give Mowbray for that, Collins will always deserve credit for giving us that great day. Beyond that however, there have been few highs and far too many problems in his short tenure. Another inexperienced manager was a risk - this time more so, as Mowbray came in with nothing to wreck, Collins inherited a precious legacy which I'd argue he's now more or less destroyed (admittedly, with some help from the board). His inexperience has shown through every time things have got difficult and today reflects the final admission he can't cut it as Hibs manager - but of course he's far too arrogant to admit that.

Only alternative is he's been offered another job elsewhere, but I'd be stunned if the SFA's ambitions are so low that they'd want Collins, and if not where else would? If he's got another job, at least have the decency to be honest and admit it, rather than reeling out an array of tawdry excuses.

I never wanted Collins to get the job and won't pretend otherwise - unfortunately my fears about the appointment have to a large extent been realised. However, I'd probably have stuck with him for a little longer, as things were not yet too disasterous and there look to be few decent alternative options - frankly, beyond Mark McGhee I can see few obvious candidates who would be an improvement (Yogi certainly would not). Now he's gone though I'm struggling to feel too devastated - maybe it is for the best before things get really bad, and at least if we can get a manager in quickly it gives him a chance to rectify some of the summer signing disasters in the January window.

At least he's secured his place in history - surely now the worst Hibs manager ever to win us silverware?

Alex Miller no ?

[Baron von Hibee]

Originally Posted by Forzahibs
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Are Motherwell superior to us ?

Right now, absolutely I'd say:

- 5 points above us in the league
- Play far better football
- THE best team in the SPL on current form

Yes, none of the above might last, but at this point in time, they are better than Hibs.

[greencol]

Originally Posted by Baron von Hibee
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Title sums up my feelings on what has happened today. The one bit of Collins' statement I agree with is he's taken this job as far as he can. To me his resignation reflects a recognition the job is too big for him, he hasn't the experience to deal with it and frankly, he's making an ever increasing mess of it.

Afraid I don't buy the limited budget rubbish. Thats not to say I don't agree 100% that with the profits made in the summer, the board could and should be paying more for players (and if there is one positive from this, maybe it will be to force the board to release the purse strings a little to persuade a new manager to take the job). However, several points wreck his argument for me:

1. Why take the job in the first place if 15 months on its a big enough issue to be a resigning matter? He knew full well the limited resources his predecessors had to deal with.
2. Even if he was made promises then that haven't been kept, he knew full well the financial restrictions he was faced with when he was allegedly quite happy to stay and didn't want the QPR job just a few months ago.
3. He hasn't had much money, but he's had more than Mowbray. Simple fact is he's done far less well at spending it - 250k has bought a totally inadequate replacement for Mowbray's 5k purchase and there are plenty more examples. As I've said on here before, do we honestly believe the superior team Mark McGhee has built at Motherwell cost more to assemble than Collins' summer signings? No. The flipside of this is Hearts ongoing proof that spending more doesn't buy success - they may not be spending what their fans want, but Vlad is spending more than Petrie, to get a place in the bottom half of the table. Money does NOT buy success on its own - Motherwell and Hearts in their own ways prove the quality of management and players are more important and are not always related to the cost of that quality.

Likewise, I don't buy the idea the players are to blame. Clearly, Collins has lost the dressing room again for the 2nd time in under a year. Personally didn't buy the blaming the players view last time - if over a dozen people share a view vs one, you've got to think they may have a point. However, there was at least the shred of an excuse that that 'wasn't his team'. It is now, yet even his players don't seem to have been wanting to work with him.

Yes, he won the CIS Cup and irrespective of how much credit we give Mowbray for that, Collins will always deserve credit for giving us that great day. Beyond that however, there have been few highs and far too many problems in his short tenure. Another inexperienced manager was a risk - this time more so, as Mowbray came in with nothing to wreck, Collins inherited a precious legacy which I'd argue he's now more or less destroyed (admittedly, with some help from the board). His inexperience has shown through every time things have got difficult and today reflects the final admission he can't cut it as Hibs manager - but of course he's far too arrogant to admit that.

Only alternative is he's been offered another job elsewhere, but I'd be stunned if the SFA's ambitions are so low that they'd want Collins, and if not where else would? If he's got another job, at least have the decency to be honest and admit it, rather than reeling out an array of tawdry excuses.

I never wanted Collins to get the job and won't pretend otherwise - unfortunately my fears about the appointment have to a large extent been realised. However, I'd probably have stuck with him for a little longer, as things were not yet too disasterous and there look to be few decent alternative options - frankly, beyond Mark McGhee I can see few obvious candidates who would be an improvement (Yogi certainly would not). Now he's gone though I'm struggling to feel too devastated - maybe it is for the best before things get really bad, and at least if we can get a manager in quickly it gives him a chance to rectify some of the summer signing disasters in the January window.

At least he's secured his place in history - surely now the worst Hibs manager ever to win us silverware?

Why waste your time with all the typing?

Your post could have read ' I don't think Collins is the man for the job'

Or.

'Mark McGhee is god'

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by Baron von Hibee
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1. Why take the job in the first place if 15 months on its a big enough issue to be a resigning matter? He knew full well the limited resources his predecessors had to deal with.
2. Even if he was made promises then that haven't been kept, he knew full well the financial restrictions he was faced with when he was allegedly quite happy to stay and didn't want the QPR job just a few months ago.
3. He hasn't had much money, but he's had more than Mowbray. Simple fact is he's done far less well at spending it - 250k has bought a totally inadequate replacement for Mowbray's 5k purchase and there are plenty more examples. and are not always related to the cost of that quality.

Big difference was Mowbray had Brown, Thomson and Whittaker at his disposal. Collins did not and was not allowed to replace them with quality.

[Baron von Hibee]

Originally Posted by StEw_ThE_HiBeE
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Alex Miller no ?

2 horse race between Collins and Miller then.

Suppose my logic was Miller achieved more in the league in his good seasons...but in fairness he did a damned sight worse in his bad ones.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Baron von Hibee
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1. Why take the job in the first place if 15 months on its a big enough issue to be a resigning matter? He knew full well the limited resources his predecessors had to deal with.

And you know what promises etc were made?

Please explain to me how any manager of our club can do his job with any success when he keeps on losing players of quality for substantial amounts of money with only a tiny fraction, and i mean a tiny fraction, being reinvested through either attracting replacements or improving the deals of those young quality breaking through?

I would love to know.

[Baron von Hibee]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs
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Big difference was Mowbray had Brown, Thomson and Whittaker at his disposal. Collins did not and was not allowed to replace them with quality.

True, but he did have Sproule, Killen and Stewart at his disposal, all of whom (as far as I can see) went because Collins wanted rid, not because the board wouldn't pay to keep them - and he replaced each of them with inferior alternatives.

[Forzahibs]

Originally Posted by Baron von Hibee
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Right now, absolutely I'd say:

- 5 points above us in the league
- Play far better football
- THE best team in the SPL on current form

Yes, none of the above might last, but at this point in time, they are better than Hibs.

Exactly so i'd say its an unfair comparison

[Pilrig]

Originally Posted by Baron von Hibee
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Even less entertaining perhaps, but he achieved more in league terms (albeit he did oversee far worse seasons than Collins too).

Achieve more in league terms ? Most of Miller's decade saw Hibs in the bottom half of the league.

[Baron von Hibee]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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And you know what promises etc were made?

Please explain to me how any manager of our club can do his job with any success when he keeps on losing players of quality for substantial amounts of money with only a tiny fraction, and i mean a tiny fraction, being reinvested through either attracting replacements or improving the deals of those young quality breaking through?

I would love to know.

No, that was my point in the next line - maybe the answer to 1 is that promises WERE made that weren't fulfilled, but even then it doesn't explain why (when Hibs were doing well) he didn't have an issue with this when the QPR job came up but now, just weeks later (with Hibs doing badly) its a resigning issue.

As I said, I'm not excusing the board here, but I'm not buying the idea they're to blame for Collins' failure either. Motherwell and Hearts prove money and success do not have to be directly proportional.

[Baron von Hibee]

Originally Posted by Pilrig
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Achieve more in league terms ? Most of Miller's decade saw Hibs in the bottom half of the league.

He did at least occasionally manage better than 6th though.