Extra UEFA Cup Place - 2009

[Brian]

Haven't seen this mentioned, apologies if it's already been covered.

Countries ranked 10-15 (Scotland is provisionally ranked 10th so far this season) in the UEFA rankings are to get an extra UEFA cup place from 2009 following the revamp announced by UEFA last week.

They're scrapping the Intertototototo and the UEFA cup will now have 4 qualifying rounds. If Scotland could get up to 9th, we'd get 2 CL + 4 UEFA.

Full list of who qualifies where is available on the excellent Bert Kassies' European football site here:

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[wee 162]

You'd have to assume that most seasons the Scottish Cup is going to be won by a side in the top 4 of the league.

So this should be used as an opportunity to raise the profile of the League Cup a bit imo. Top two qualify for the CL, 3rd & 4th qualify for the UEFA Cup. Scottish Cup winners qualify for the UEFA Cup, but if they already qualify through the league then the winners of the League Cup qualify instead. If they qualify through the league then you give it to the team finishing 5th.

Stop rewarding sides for losing in cup finals. Gretna qualified for the UEFA Cup having not played an SPL side till the final. If they won it fair does, but they didn't. So you have a team who got utterly horsed by Derry City in the UEFA Cup instead of Hibs.

[Dub]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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You'd have to assume that most seasons the Scottish Cup is going to be won by a side in the top 4 of the league.

So this should be used as an opportunity to raise the profile of the League Cup a bit imo. Top two qualify for the CL, 3rd & 4th qualify for the UEFA Cup. Scottish Cup winners qualify for the UEFA Cup, but if they already qualify through the league then the winners of the League Cup qualify instead. If they qualify through the league then you give it to the team finishing 5th.

Stop rewarding sides for losing in cup finals. Gretna qualified for the UEFA Cup having not played an SPL side till the final. If they won it fair does, but they didn't. So you have a team who got utterly horsed by Derry City in the UEFA Cup instead of Hibs.

Good plan. Although can you clarify this part -

So you have a team who got utterly horsed by Derry City in the UEFA Cup instead of Hibs

Are you implying that its Hibs that should have been horsed by Derry City rather than gretna
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[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Dub
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Good plan. Although can you clarify this part - Are you implying that its Hibs that should have been horsed by Derry City rather than gretna
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Aye, it should have been
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Just for the record, every single Scottish team who have got through to the UEFA Cup through losing a cup final recently has failed to even get past the qualifying round in the UEFA Cup which they are seeded for. That's Dunfermline this season, Gretna last year, Dundee Utd the season before, and Dunfermline again the season before that. Lost to one Icelandic, one Swedish, one Irish, and one Finnish side. Utterly utterly shite performances.

[Spleesh]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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You'd have to assume that most seasons the Scottish Cup is going to be won by a side in the top 4 of the league.

So this should be used as an opportunity to raise the profile of the League Cup a bit imo. Top two qualify for the CL, 3rd & 4th qualify for the UEFA Cup. Scottish Cup winners qualify for the UEFA Cup, but if they already qualify through the league then the winners of the League Cup qualify instead. If they qualify through the league then you give it to the team finishing 5th.

Stop rewarding sides for losing in cup finals. Gretna qualified for the UEFA Cup having not played an SPL side till the final. If they won it fair does, but they didn't. So you have a team who got utterly horsed by Derry City in the UEFA Cup instead of Hibs.

totally agree with this statement, winners only or league position

[HibeeJibee]

Do be aware that the 'third' UEFA Cup place is just the InterToto in new clothes, and that the team which gets it will start matches at the end of June. However, since UEFA Cup entrance is compulsory.

You may be interested that Gordon Smith's big statement on retracting the runners-up slot from next season is actually not true. The SFA has no power. UEFA are still to make the decision. He's bluffing.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by HibeeJibee
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Do be aware that the 'third' UEFA Cup place is just the InterToto in new clothes, and that the team which gets it will start matches at the end of June. However, since UEFA Cup entrance is compulsory.

You may be interested that Gordon Smith's big statement on retracting the runners-up slot from next season is actually not true. The SFA has no power. UEFA are still to make the decision. He's bluffing.

Pish.

UEFA doesn't have anything to do with who enters their competitions. Each team is entered by their national FAs. UEFA ended up intervening and giving England an extra place a couple of years ago because the English decided that Everton were getting the 4th CL place, not the holders Liverpool. UEFA then changed their rules to say that no more than 4 teams from 1 country can ever again qualify for the CL, and the holders have to be one of them if it comes down to it.

If UEFA had the only say on it they wouldn't allow the Dutch system of play offs for different European competitions for starters. All they do is approve the systems in place, and it's a rubber stamp.

[HibeeJibee]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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Pish.

UEFA doesn't have anything to do with who enters their competitions. Each team is entered by their national FAs. UEFA ended up intervening and giving England an extra place a couple of years ago because the English decided that Everton were getting the 4th CL place, not the holders Liverpool. UEFA then changed their rules to say that no more than 4 teams from 1 country can ever again qualify for the CL, and the holders have to be one of them if it comes down to it.
If UEFA had the only say on it they wouldn't allow the Dutch system of play offs for different European competitions for starters. All they do is approve the systems in place, and it's a rubber stamp.

Pish back......

Part of the conditions on the dis-establishment of the European Cup-Winners' Cup was that there are guaranteed slots for the cup winners, and in case of them qualifying for the CL, the cup runners-up. Bert Kassis on here [Only Registered Users Can See Links. Click Here To Register] discussed the very issue of Smiths comments a couple of days ago. Cannae find it (yet...) but he said he's bluffing - & usually right.


EDIT TO ADD: Found it at [Only Registered Users Can See Links. Click Here To Register]

mabo > Does anyone know whether UEFA introduced the principle that just the cup winner should be entitled to take part in the UEFA Cup, and under no circumstances the losing finalist?


badger boy > I really hope so - but there's been no publicity about it - so maybe not.

It was talked about a while ago in UEFA direct in a way that gave me the impression that a decision had been reached to kick out cup losers but I'm not sure if this was pre-Platini & whether his love of the profile of Cups extends to the losing finalists or not.


neill > Scottish Football Association chief Gordon Smith has said that Scotland will no longer nominate cup runners-up in future. Does Smith have the authority to make this decision, or has the decision been made by UEFA anyway?


badger boy > Certainly under the current rules the SFA don't have the authority to decide.

This was discussed a while back & some people dispute this - because of the use of words like "may" in the UEFA regs. I don't want to get into old arguments - but frankly these people are wrong.

But UEFA have talked about changing this rule for some time & - given the confident pronouncements of Gordon Smith - I would suspect that - at a minium this will be changed (maybe even for 2008-09?) to give countries the option to choose. Personally I hope UEFA just ban cup losers entirely - because the English FA will probably keep sending them otherwise.

But I guess a firm decision to kick them out entirely would get a fair bit of publicity whereas maybe an "option" might not be widely noticed until the competition regulations are published.

From reading the rest of the thread (not copying & pasting it all), I think that when the 'new structure' of the CL & UEFA Cup comes in for 2009-2010, the cup runner-up will be abolished. I.e. this is the last season that the cup-runner up can qualify for the UEFA Cup. Thus, Smith only has a problem (albeit a rather embarrassing one) if this seasons runner-up should get in, and his statements say they won't?

[shandongreen]

Originally Posted by HibeeJibee
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Pish back......

Part of the conditions on the dis-establishment of the European Cup-Winners' Cup was that there are guaranteed slots for the cup winners, and in case of them qualifying for the CL, the cup runners-up. Bert Kassis on here [Only Registered Users Can See Links. Click Here To Register] discussed the very issue of Smiths comments a couple of days ago. Cannae find it (yet...) but he said he's bluffing - & usually right.


EDIT TO ADD: Found it at [Only Registered Users Can See Links. Click Here To Register]

mabo > Does anyone know whether UEFA introduced the principle that just the cup winner should be entitled to take part in the UEFA Cup, and under no circumstances the losing finalist?

platini wanted fa cup winners to go in CL, english fa told him to bolt ! amount of places are allocated how they are divided up to individual country.

go and check spanish,german or french cup runner ups ! are they all involved in uefa cup,NO SO CANT BE ACROSS THE BOARD.
badger boy > I really hope so - but there's been no publicity about it - so maybe not.

It was talked about a while ago in UEFA direct in a way that gave me the impression that a decision had been reached to kick out cup losers but I'm not sure if this was pre-Platini & whether his love of the profile of Cups extends to the losing finalists or not.


neill > Scottish Football Association chief Gordon Smith has said that Scotland will no longer nominate cup runners-up in future. Does Smith have the authority to make this decision, or has the decision been made by UEFA anyway?


badger boy > Certainly under the current rules the SFA don't have the authority to decide.

This was discussed a while back & some people dispute this - because of the use of words like "may" in the UEFA regs. I don't want to get into old arguments - but frankly these people are wrong.

But UEFA have talked about changing this rule for some time & - given the confident pronouncements of Gordon Smith - I would suspect that - at a minium this will be changed (maybe even for 2008-09?) to give countries the option to choose. Personally I hope UEFA just ban cup losers entirely - because the English FA will probably keep sending them otherwise.

But I guess a firm decision to kick them out entirely would get a fair bit of publicity whereas maybe an "option" might not be widely noticed until the competition regulations are published.

From reading the rest of the thread (not copying & pasting it all), I think that when the 'new structure' of the CL & UEFA Cup comes in for 2009-2010, the cup runner-up will be abolished. I.e. this is the last season that the cup-runner up can qualify for the UEFA Cup. Thus, Smith only has a problem (albeit a rather embarrassing one) if this seasons runner-up should get in, and his statements say they won't?

platini wanted fa cup winners to go in CL, english fa told him to bolt ! amount of places are allocated how they are divided up to individual country.

go and check spanish,german or french cup runner ups ! are they all involved in uefa cup,NO SO CANT BE ACROSS THE BOARD.

[HibeeJibee]

Originally Posted by shandongreen
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platini wanted fa cup winners to go in CL, english fa told him to bolt ! amount of places are allocated how they are divided up to individual country.

go and check spanish,german or french cup runner ups ! are they all involved in uefa cup,NO SO CANT BE ACROSS THE BOARD.

Your right at a very basic level.

1) Platini did want cup winners from the top 16 nations to hold a play-off system for 4 places in the Champions Leauge. However, I think this was just brinkmanship to get negotiations to go his way. He got what he wanted, which was the reforms just passed. The FA weren't the instigators of opposition.

2) UEFA allocates places to each country, and specifies what these slots are for. As I said above, I didn't realise this includes cup runners-up taking the cup winner slot, should the cup winner qualify for the Champions League, but apparently it does. The reason Netherlands, San Marino etc. can have play-offs is because under their league rules, the play-offs decide which position you finish in the league. In the same way teams in the bottom half of the split in Scotland may not finish above 7th.
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3) French Cup last season won by FC Sochaux, who finished 13th in Ligue 1, so no runner-up got in.

4) German Cup last season won by FC Nurnberg, finished 6th in 1 Bundesliga, so no runner-up got in.

5) Spanish Cup last season won by Sevilla, finished 3rd in Primera Division so qualified for Champions League, and as per the rules cup runners-up Getafe (9th) qualified for UEFA Cup. Played AAB tonight.

6) Another example many will recognise is Millwall, who lost (to Fenerbahce?) after losing FA Cup final.