Aberdeen Are £14 Million In Debts But Are Giving Calderwood Over A Million To Spend..

[Keepitgreen]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Perhaps. However, it was to provoke a response..

What response exactly Smurf? When somebody responded and pointed out that JC has had a comparable amount of cash and that the sums bandied about for Tango are in fact being used up for contract renewals, you've decided that your point was about our %age of turnover spend on players not being high enough??!
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I think the clue here is in the title of the thread dude. Aberdeen are £14 million in debt... That's where we were just four years ago ffs. Why can't the club have more time before sticking this %age back up? What is the rush to go back to what we did? Are we struggling in the mire, desperate for a push to save us from relegation? Has the cost-cutting hamstrung our ability to challenge in the cups or for 3rd spot? Um....

I made a light-hearted thread about RP and his future tenure just as a response to all the ranting and raving on here about how doomed we are. The seriousness of the replies to that thread just sums it up for me, people truly do believe that Rod Petrie is a Bad Man and is somehow intent on holding our club back. Why he does this? No-one seems to know. But he does....
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Originally Posted by wee 162
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It would have been a lot better if it wasn't necessary immediately afterwards to replace them with Colin Murdock, Jarko Wiss, and Derek Townsley or alternatively moving to Straiton.

As I've said many times it wasn't the cost of paying the players who were a big success with us that caused us the major problems, it was the cost of paying huge wages to the likes of Paul Fenwick, and the cost of paying the Peter Guggis who contributed virtually feck all.

And aye, I'm sure the jambos did enjoy watching them drawing with Gretna and then getting pumped by in the qualifiers for the CL. And they'll have those memories when their club no longer exists pronto...

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Really short, selective memories. That's what an awful lot of Hibbies seem to have when demanding we splash the cash once more. I won't forget StraitonGate. How did the club end up in that scenario? Overspending.

It's about more than wanting to see the team do well this year. It's about wanting to see the club do well for the next 50 years. AND at Easter Road.

Originally Posted by Strontian Hibby
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Guys, Financial stability isn't an optional extra. It's an absolute imperative, and R.P. is doing a great job in that direction.
When all the debt is cleared, the Training Centre paid for and the new East Stand is built what do you then think the dosh which has been going in these directions recently is going to be used for.
Let me guess!! PLAYING STAFF. So FFS be patient. With everything else bought and paid for ,we will be able to out spend all the other mugs on our playing staff.
And if R.P> still doesn't invest in the playing side, that will be the time to get him told!!

Good post StrontianHibby but unfortunately patience as a virtue these days seems to be disappearing faster than ever. Everyone wants everything and they want it right now.

A football club usually spends its money on 2 things. The playing budget and servicing debt.

Right now the club are in a transition. We are moving from being a club in the red to a club in the black. In just a couple of seasons time, we should be completely debt-free with a completed stadium and first class training facilities.

Then we will only need to spend money on one thing.

When that time arrives and the club are making profits, then is the time when the playing budget will be increased - it's only natural. The club can't spend their money on anything else!

In the current period, the players on the park need our full support more than ever while we turn this corner. It's gonnae get easier to support the Hibs in the future when we start doing even better!

There is no big bad evil plan at work here. Hibernian Football Club are going from strength to strength and we can all look forward to a bright future. Things may not happen as fast as you would like but that's football.

I look around at all the other SPL clubs and I am thankful to be in the position we are. Of course things can always be improved and hopefully they will be. It just takes time.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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What response exactly Smurf? When somebody responded and pointed out that JC has had a comparable amount of cash and that the sums bandied about for Tango are in fact being used up for contract renewals, you've decided that your point was about our %age of turnover spend on players not being high enough??!
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Point being that our budget IMO shouldn't be "Comparable" with a club £14 Million in debt.

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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I think the clue here is in the title of the thread dude. Aberdeen are £14 million in debt... That's where we were just four years ago ffs. Why can't the club have more time before sticking this %age back up? What is the rush to go back to what we did? Are we struggling in the mire, desperate for a push to save us from relegation? Has the cost-cutting hamstrung our ability to challenge in the cups or for 3rd spot? Um....

Who the fuck is proposing that we go back to what we did? A ridiculous point to make. Are you a secret Daily Record 'Journalist'?

No we are not struggling. Why should we be? Would be pretty ridiculous if we were. We've got the 4th largest average crowd in Scotland. The lowest debt amongst the top clubs. The best young players...

Oh but yes IMO the cost-cutting ABSOFECKINLUTELY hamstrung our ability to challenge for cups.

What was our forward options in the Scottish Cup Semi-Finals 2006 & 2007?
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Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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I made a light-hearted thread about RP and his future tenure just as a response to all the ranting and raving on here about how doomed we are. The seriousness of the replies to that thread just sums it up for me, people truly do believe that Rod Petrie is a Bad Man and is somehow intent on holding our club back. Why he does this? No-one seems to know. But he does....
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Again, you're making it up... Who has us doomed?
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[Keepitgreen]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Point being that our budget IMO shouldn't be "Comparable" with a club £14 Million in debt.

You're right.

If thats the kind of budget that a team in £14million of debt has, why the fuck should we be trying to spend more than them? It's crazy surely.

They are in that debt due to budgets like this. Look where its got them! Aberdeen are a perfect example of why NOT to increase our budget, they've had fuck all results for years!!

Paying 'experienced' journeyman substantial wedges then giving your youngsters megabucks deals from an early age clearly DID NOT WORK for them.

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Who the fuck is proposing that we go back to what we did? A ridiculous point to make. Are you a secret Daily Record 'Journalist'?

When you demand that our %age of budget for playing staff should be increased, that sounds like a request to go back to what we did. Cos what we used to do, was spend a much higher %age of our turnover on the playing budget.. Now, you may be advocating a smaller %age than before overall, but it's still steps on the same path.

I'm not saying that what you are requesting is completely wrong either dude, just that the timing may be a little premature. Why don't we wait just a while longer before pushing these costs up again?

Originally Posted by Smurf
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No we are not struggling. Why should we be? Would be pretty ridiculous if we were. We've got the 4th largest average crowd in Scotland. The lowest debt amongst the top clubs. The best young players...

All good points. So why the glum outlook from posters such as yourself? Why do the Board 'need' to do anything that you are requesting, as everything is pretty rosy as is? If it ain't broke n all that...

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Oh but yes IMO the cost-cutting ABSOFECKINLUTELY hamstrung our ability to challenge for cups.

What was our forward options in the Scottish Cup Semi-Finals 2006 & 2007?
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Again, you're making it up... Who has us doomed?
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I'd be hesitant to pin any specific reasons for losing those matches on what the board did. However I take your point and indeed cost-cutting is never a pain-free process.

Lets talk about the specifics of what you are requesting then Smurf..

If we sign any players on higher contract terms than exist at the club already, all of the other regulars in the side will itch for that increase too, yes?

lf we start signing up our youngsters on bigger deals, then maybe the hunger that drives them on to improve and earn bigger deals will not be as strong? Making them not-so talented youngsters?

With an overall bigger wage spend, bonuses naturally will also be higher. As the club improves, bonuses will be paid out at a higher frequency.

These are rapidly increasing amounts of cash and very quickly a club can start to be consumed by it.

Being straight up here Smurf, I'm wary of the board fecking it up again. There, I said it. The little steps at the start are the ones that led to a slippery slope so I guess I'm trying to pre-empt it before it arrives.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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I made a light-hearted thread about RP and his future tenure just as a response to all the ranting and raving on here about how doomed we are. The seriousness of the replies to that thread just sums it up for me, people truly do believe that Rod Petrie is a Bad Man and is somehow intent on holding our club back. Why he does this? No-one seems to know. But he does....
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I'm not one of those who think we're doomed by any means, but serious questions should be getting asked about the boards level of ambition, competence, and record imo. Our wages are too low, and we are still in cost-cutting mode imo. There hasn't been a big effort from the board to support JC financially. The increase in income for the club has came almost exclusively from the fans, and punting players. There hasn't been the associated increase in commercial income that I believe should have been expected over the last few years considering that we currently have the most marketable Hibs team in my life. There are various parts of the club which seem badly run imo. Communication between club and fans is still primitive at best. Consulting with the fans is often promised and rarely if ever delivered in my experience. Transparency has not been the boards strong point.

Saying all that, I do accept that Petrie has done a good job getting the finances under control from where they were a few years ago. It has to be mentioned at this point though that he was also in charge when those debts were run up, and there was absolutely no plan B in place if it went tits up. The hastily conceived (aye right!) plan they came up with would have seen Hibs moving into an industrial estate miles from the clubs core support base... If someone spews up on themself and then cleans themselves up should they get huge credit for being clean, or should they be treated with some scepticism about their ability to not spew up on themselves again? Or to continue the analogy, if you're going for a pint with this person, how much of a good time are you going to have if they only will have one pint (which they expect you to pay for) because they are too feared of spewing on themselves again?

AFAIC a new East Stand should be either put on hold or funded with an absolutely minimal amount of our expected revenue from the current sources. If they find a commercial sponsor to pay for a big chunk of it, I'll be quite happy to sit in the McBurgersoft Stadium for the next few years and continue to call it Easter Road. If the plan is to spend future transfer fees on building something which needs a team who are getting invested in to fill it, then it will be nothing more than a white elephant imo. I'd far prefer ER to remain as it is until we can build up the demand where a decent increase in capacity is going to be utilised if no other funding can be found by the board.

To sum up, we're near as dammit out of debt. I'm not wanting us to go radge, but having the ability to go out and spend some cash where it's needed on the park should now be getting factored into the expected spending every season.

And also fwiw, I am not getting suckered into the windfall transfer fees argument some others are using as saying we should be spending cash now. That money has come and gone clearing up previous messes, building the training centre, and we won't be seeing it again. Deal with the present situation whilst remembering and learning from the mistakes of the past.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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You're right.

Should we just end it there then?
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Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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If thats the kind of budget that a team in £14million of debt has, why the fuck should we be trying to spend more than them? It's crazy surely.

Ultimately what they do isn't relevant. But i tried to make the point that IF (and IF) a club like Aberdeen with a smaller fan base than us can look to spend when fecked in debt then surely a club like us with no debt can back and support our manager?

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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They are in that debt due to budgets like this. Look where its got them! Aberdeen are a perfect example of why NOT to increase our budget, they've had fuck all results for years!!

But they're in debt and we're no! Also, i and others are not calling for huge increases in budgets. I think we'd be looking for a sensible increase that can be sustained...

Certainly i would.

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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Paying 'experienced' journeyman substantial wedges then giving your youngsters megabucks deals from an early age clearly DID NOT WORK for them.

I can't rrally think of Aberdeen personnel as such tbh so can't comment. They like us though have appointed some poor managers in the past 10 years and that costs dosh..

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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When you demand that our %age of budget for playing staff should be increased, that sounds like a request to go back to what we did. Cos what we used to do, was spend a much higher %age of our turnover on the playing budget.. Now, you may be advocating a smaller %age than before overall, but it's still steps on the same path.

I think not that long ago we had something like 80% of turnover going on wages.. Obviously that wasn't sustainable and action was required. However, the guy who slashed the budgets was the guy who got us in the mess..

So of course i'm not looking for a return to that. However, in order to sustain our growth of recent years (upward spiral..) IMO we do need to look to add to the quality of personnel. Also, as importantlyn IMO is keeping what we've got and protecting these assets longer term. With Fletcher & Murphy we've done that but we look like losing Boozy for SFA..

Therefore, IMO we will struggle to maintain our upward spiral since 2004 unless we sensibly relax our fiscal prudence..

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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I'm not saying that what you are requesting is completely wrong either dude, just that the timing may be a little premature. Why don't we wait just a while longer before pushing these costs up again?

Because IMO we run the risk of under achievement (that has a negative financial impact!) through lack of investment on the playing side of things.

Had we kept Gary O'Connor in 2006 who knows we may well have won the Scottish Cup.. Ok that would have been a difficult one to decline..

However, had we relaxed the budget to replace an injured Killen in Jan 2007 would we have drawn a blank and failed to score in TWO games at Hampden v Dunfermline feckin Athletic?

HAD we beat Dunfermline we might still be in Europe. HUGE potential financial return..

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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All good points. So why the glum outlook from posters such as yourself? Why do the Board 'need' to do anything that you are requesting, as everything is pretty rosy as is? If it ain't broke n all that...

I don't accept that my outlook is glum dude.

However, as a club IMO we hugely underachieve. There's reasons for that. There must be.

I don't accept the 'We're lucky to be alive' mentality.

I embrace the 'We're Hibernian FC and we fear nobody' mentality. Things have been great since we got rid of Williamson. Things can IMO get even better.

But it takes vision. Ambition.

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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I'd be hesitant to pin any specific reasons for losing those matches on what the board did. However I take your point and indeed cost-cutting is never a pain-free process.

What was his name again.. Thomas Sowumni or something?

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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Lets talk about the specifics of what you are requesting then Smurf..

Me being specific?

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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If we sign any players on higher contract terms than exist at the club already, all of the other regulars in the side will itch for that increase too, yes?

I'd imagine Fletcher is now the top earner. If Clayton's Mrs reads this and instructs her man to go to see Rod Petrie so she can increase her spend in Harvey Nicks i'd imagine he'd quite rightly tell him to GTF.

In other words go and do the business like Fletcher and then come back to the door.

If there's a queue forming at Petrie's door of players looking for extra dosh then unless they are all producing it on the park i don't see the problem to be honest.

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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lf we start signing up our youngsters on bigger deals, then maybe the hunger that drives them on to improve and earn bigger deals will not be as strong?

Did that happen with Kevin Thomson, Scott Brown or Steven Whittaker?

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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With an overall bigger wage spend, bonuses naturally will also be higher. As the club improves, bonuses will be paid out at a higher frequency.

Good. The more we achieve on the park the more we drive up attendances and commercial revenues...

That's why Rod Petrie earns around 150K a year at ER...

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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These are rapidly increasing amounts of cash and very quickly a club can start to be consumed by it.

Not if the CEO is doing his job properly..

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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Being straight up here Smurf, I'm wary of the board fecking it up again. There, I said it. The little steps at the start are the ones that led to a slippery slope so I guess I'm trying to pre-empt it before it arrives.

Ahhh...
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So ultimately you've nae faith in the board either..
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Chill dude. There's no way Rod & The Board will relax things in the way they did 1999-2001.

Unless GJP comes back..
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[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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What was his name again.. Thomas Sowumni or something?

Unless there's another Showunmi he scored for Bristol City on Saturday...

[ScottTheHibby]

The £1.4m is a great spin on a non story. Hibs could well point out that they've paid nearly £1m on transfer fee's alone in the last 14 months.

But here is the other crux of the story, Aberdeen are selling Pittodrie and moving into a council built and owned stadium that will wipe out their £14m debt.

Hibs had the chance to do this and the same posters that critised the Board then for even considering moving should have a good think about shouting from the rooftops now about a so called lack of investment from the same said Board

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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Unless there's another Showunmi he scored for Bristol City on Saturday...

Different player dude iirc..

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by ScottTheHibby
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Hibs had the chance to do this and the same posters that critised the Board then for even considering moving should have a good think about shouting from the rooftops now about a so called lack of investment from the same said Board

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That's all such a ridiculous comment deserves..
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[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Different player dude iirc..

Glad we never sung theres only one Showunmi for accuracies sake then
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You can slag him all you want but he was an improvement on Konte tbf!

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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Glad we never sung theres only one Showunmi for accuracies sake then
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You can slag him all you want but he was an improvement on Konte tbf!

True! Konte score more goals though...
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[Keepitgreen]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Should we just end it there then?
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Originally Posted by Smurf
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Ultimately what they do isn't relevant. But i tried to make the point that IF (and IF) a club like Aberdeen with a smaller fan base than us can look to spend when fecked in debt then surely a club like us with no debt can back and support our manager?

But Smurf didn't you already agree that JC has had a comparable amount to spend as well? In fact you said that wasn't really your point any more...
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Originally Posted by Smurf
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But they're in debt and we're no! Also, i and others are not calling for huge increases in budgets. I think we'd be looking for a sensible increase that can be sustained...

Certainly i would.

A modest, sensible increase that can be sustained over the longer term? Yes I think I'd like that too. We agree!
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Originally Posted by Smurf
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I can't rrally think of Aberdeen personnel as such tbh so can't comment. They like us though have appointed some poor managers in the past 10 years and that costs dosh..

No need to think of their personnel, or even managers. Just think of their on-field success of the past 10 years
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Originally Posted by Smurf
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I think not that long ago we had something like 80% of turnover going on wages.. Obviously that wasn't sustainable and action was required. However, the guy who slashed the budgets was the guy who got us in the mess..

So of course i'm not looking for a return to that. However, in order to sustain our growth of recent years (upward spiral..) IMO we do need to look to add to the quality of personnel. Also, as importantlyn IMO is keeping what we've got and protecting these assets longer term. With Fletcher & Murphy we've done that but we look like losing Boozy for SFA..

Therefore, IMO we will struggle to maintain our upward spiral since 2004 unless we sensibly relax our fiscal prudence..

Yes it does make sense to gradually increase our budget moving forward. Such language is correct IMO. I've bolded the words that I like to see in this climate Smurf, posts like these are much more beneficial to the debate than simple 'get spendin Petrie' or whatever
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As Wee 162 mentioned (either on this thread or elsewhere, I forget) the constant bringing up of 'lottery rollover' transfer fees needs to end
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as this money has now been accounted for.

The idea now for Hibs is to ensure the club continues to operate without incurring huge debts again. Within this rigid framework the club should definitely utilise as much funding as it can towards the playing staff.

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Because IMO we run the risk of under achievement (that has a negative financial impact!) through lack of investment on the playing side of things.

Had we kept Gary O'Connor in 2006 who knows we may well have won the Scottish Cup.. Ok that would have been a difficult one to decline..

However, had we relaxed the budget to replace an injured Killen in Jan 2007 would we have drawn a blank and failed to score in TWO games at Hampden v Dunfermline feckin Athletic?

HAD we beat Dunfermline we might still be in Europe. HUGE potential financial return..

Ok lots of ifs and buts but I get your drift. Thankfully though, we did win the League Cup with this penny-pinching attitude and hopefully, we will have a Euro adventure soon too. There are plenty of what-ifs in life dude but the what-actually-happened with Hibs is none too shabby either is it? AND it can only get better...