martis

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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That's fine, except it has been noticed by a couple of folk on here (including me and Kenny iirc) that the players who are scapegoated at Hibs seem to be disproportionately not British. This season I have hardly heard a word of criticism about Hogg, or Jones, but Martis has had it tight all year. Fletcher is treated with a sense of disappointment when he has been appalling the majority of the year but when Benji was having a bad spell there were people slating him left right and centre. Zemamma is continually accused of being a diving wee so and so, yet Dean Shiels has been booked as many times as him for diving and it hasn't been mentioned. I've seen people rating Sam fecking Morrow and thinking he was a better bet than Benji ffs!

I've no problem with people thinking someone is a bad player. And I've no problem with someone thinking someone who is a different colour from them is a bad player. What I do have a problem with is the continual scapegoating of certain players time and time again, and when they all happen to be of a different colour to those of the majority of the support, I personally can't help wondering about that.

Look at this thread. I've gave what I think is a very good example of a shocker of a mistake by Hogg for Aberdeens first goal. One of the very few comments about that is "but this thread is about Martis". Can you see other threads slating Hogg?

I've no doubt that there is some racism within our support but i think it's a very small minority and to be honest it's something in the decline. There is no doubt that attitudes are changing and changing fast. Compare today to even ten or twenty years ago.

I absolutely refuse to believe that there is any real issue with regards to a racism connection to the criticism of Martis. I just don't see it at all.

On the whole the body language of both Jones and Hogg is far more confident than Martis. However, Jones in particular has had more than his fair shares of clangers but what we've found with Jones is that he's having a very good game and then it's a costly mistake.. If he was a goalkeeper of course it would be much different. Jones has probably cost as many goals as Zibi this season for example.

The support rates Jones and it is not so confident about Martis. I formed an opinion earlier in the season that Martis isn't good enough for a club like us. I think Jones has lots to work on and it times it shows that only a few years ago he was playing at a lower level. However, he is improving.

The criticism has been there for Whittaker, Beuzelin, Fletcher, Stewart and even Riordan in the past two years. Martis is no different in this respect.

If we get into a situation where we can be more vocal of our criticism of a white Scottish player than we can of a non white non Scottish player then we're fecked.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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I've no doubt that there is some racism within our support but i think it's a very small minority and to be honest it's something in the decline. There is no doubt that attitudes are changing and changing fast. Compare today to even ten or twenty years ago.

I absolutely refuse to believe that there is any real issue with regards to a racism connection to the criticism of Martis. I just don't see it at all.

On the whole the body language of both Jones and Hogg is far more confident than Martis. However, Jones in particular has had more than his fair shares of clangers but what we've found with Jones is that he's having a very good game and then it's a costly mistake.. If he was a goalkeeper of course it would be much different. Jones has probably cost as many goals as Zibi this season for example.

The support rates Jones and it is not so confident about Martis. I formed an opinion earlier in the season that Martis isn't good enough for a club like us. I think Jones has lots to work on and it times it shows that only a few years ago he was playing at a lower level. However, he is improving.

The criticism has been there for Whittaker, Beuzelin, Fletcher, Stewart and even Riordan in the past two years. Martis is no different in this respect.

If we get into a situation where we can be more vocal of our criticism of a white Scottish player than we can of a non white non Scottish player then we're fecked.

That's not what I'm saying. In my first post on this thread I said that I personally thought Martis had a stinker on Saturday. What I am saying is that people seem to be very quick to jump on the bandwagon of criticism with certain players but not others. Again, did other people see the first goal completely differently to me on Saturday? If they did, why are they not coming out and saying that? If they didn't, why is there no 4 page thread slating Hogg?

I'm not convinced it is racism btw. However when, imo, others are making mistakes that are barely mentioned but every mistake from certain players are, there is something a bit weird going on and I don't understand what it is.

[oo2beahibby]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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I've no doubt that there is some racism within our support but i think it's a very small minority and to be honest it's something in the decline. There is no doubt that attitudes are changing and changing fast. Compare today to even ten or twenty years ago.

I absolutely refuse to believe that there is any real issue with regards to a racism connection to the criticism of Martis. I just don't see it at all.

On the whole the body language of both Jones and Hogg is far more confident than Martis. However, Jones in particular has had more than his fair shares of clangers but what we've found with Jones is that he's having a very good game and then it's a costly mistake.. If he was a goalkeeper of course it would be much different. Jones has probably cost as many goals as Zibi this season for example.

The support rates Jones and it is not so confident about Martis. I formed an opinion earlier in the season that Martis isn't good enough for a club like us. I think Jones has lots to work on and it times it shows that only a few years ago he was playing at a lower level. However, he is improving.

The criticism has been there for Whittaker, Beuzelin, Fletcher, Stewart and even Riordan in the past two years. Martis is no different in this respect.

If we get into a situation where we can be more vocal of our criticism of a white Scottish player than we can of a non white non Scottish player then we're fecked.

Kenny, you might want to revisit that last paragraph I highlighted as it's a really fucking stupid thing to say, and is actually racist in itself. My sole criteria for criticising a player is his ability, or lack of. I'd be disappointed in any other Hibbie who doesn't apply exactly the same rules.

For what it's worth, in the case of Shelton's poor form I think it's a combination of lack of confidence, and, to a slightly lesser extent, ability.

[Dr Shrink]

I merely ventured an opinion that Martis had a 'bombscare afternoon'. Prompted simply by Murder's astonishing award of MOM to Martis when I thought he had a very edgy day..

I don't think I have scapegoated the guy or indeed vilified him in any way.
However, I object to my post being linked to any hints of racism.

Anyone who suggests that my (frankly rather innocuous) post on Maris is any anyway influenced by the colour of his skin is not only completely wrong but clearly a bit stupid.
The fact that the same poster also said "Simple bland assertions don't get you very far I'm afraid" yet sees nothing wrong with suggesting that Bouncers are racist for making comment on a players performance seems a fine example of double standards.
However, I won't labour the point. If Crabit thinks I'm a racist then I'll just have to live with that. I don't intend to debate the point.

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As someone else said "I just don't have David Attenborough's patience when dealing with lower life forms"


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[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Dr Shrink
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I merely ventured an opinion that Martis had a 'bombscare afternoon'. Prompted simply by Murder's astonishing award of MOM to Martis when I thought he had a very edgy day..

I don't think I have scapegoated the guy or indeed vilified him in any way.
However, I object to my post being linked to any hints of racism.

Anyone who suggests that my (frankly rather innocuous) post on Maris is any anyway influenced by the colour of his skin is not only completely wrong but clearly a bit stupid.
The fact that the same poster also said "Simple bland assertions don't get you very far I'm afraid" yet sees nothing wrong with suggesting that Bouncers are racist for making comment on a players performance seems a fine example of double standards.
However, I won't labour the point. If Crabit thinks I'm a racist then I'll just have to live with that. I don't intend to debate the point.

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As someone else said "I just don't have David Attenborough's patience when dealing with lower life forms"


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I dinnae think that it's the case though that anyone who states a negative opinion on a player who is black is considered racist by me or anyone else. The point that I am trying to make is that there seems to be a bit of double standards when it comes to players which does appear to be down racial lines. That is maybe just coincidence, and in fact I really hope it is. However, since it does seem to keep happening that way, I personally do end up being a bit suspicious about why that is...

FWIW I agree with you that Martis didn't have a good game on Saturday.

[crabit]

Originally Posted by Dr Shrink
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I merely ventured an opinion that Martis had a 'bombscare afternoon'. Prompted simply by Murder's astonishing award of MOM to Martis when I thought he had a very edgy day..

I don't think I have scapegoated the guy or indeed vilified him in any way.
However, I object to my post being linked to any hints of racism.

Anyone who suggests that my (frankly rather innocuous) post on Maris is any anyway influenced by the colour of his skin is not only completely wrong but clearly a bit stupid.
The fact that the same poster also said "Simple bland assertions don't get you very far I'm afraid" yet sees nothing wrong with suggesting that Bouncers are racist for making comment on a players performance seems a fine example of double standards.
However, I won't labour the point. If Crabit thinks I'm a racist then I'll just have to live with that. I don't intend to debate the point.

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As someone else said "I just don't have David Attenborough's patience when dealing with lower life forms"


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On the other hand that is a very touchy reply given that I have accused no one of being racist (and frankly I don't believe that you or anyone else on this thread are racist). I don't believe that policemen are racist either but that doesn't alter the fact that a disproportionate number of black people get arrested by them. Non-white players get treated less fairly by posters than white players - that is a blindingly obvious observable fact. If that fact makes you uncomfortable then you are probably right in ignoring what I say.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by oo2beahibby
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Kenny, you might want to revisit that last paragraph I highlighted as it's a really fucking stupid thing to say, and is actually racist in itself.

In what way is it stupid? Why is it racist?

[oo2beahibby]

If we get into a situation where we can be more vocal of our criticism of a white Scottish player than we can of a non white non Scottish player then we're fecked.

Originally Posted by Smurf
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In what way is it stupid? Why is it racist?

Because creed, colour or nationality should play no part in your reasoning if you're going to criticise a player.

Having re-read it again, I'll withdraw and apologise for the racist bit, but I still think it wisnae the brightest idea to phrase your point in the manner you did, and would refer you to my original point as to why. As far as I'm concerned, it's fair play to say either: "Martis, you're shite," or "Jones, you're shite." It's the use of adjectives that describe either their skin colour or nationality that would make such remarks racist.

Conversely, anyone who suggests that someone who criticises a black player is racist has issues too.

[Bartok]

Originally Posted by oo2beahibby
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Kenny, you might want to revisit that last paragraph I highlighted as it's a really fucking stupid thing to say, and is actually racist in itself. My sole criteria for criticising a player is his ability, or lack of. I'd be disappointed in any other Hibbie who doesn't apply exactly the same rules.

For what it's worth, in the case of Shelton's poor form I think it's a combination of lack of confidence, and, to a slightly lesser extent, ability.

I didn't see Smurf's point as a stupid thing to say, G, in fact quite the opposite. Have you misread his post?

[oo2beahibby]

Originally Posted by Dixie Chicken
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I didn't see Smurf's point as a stupid thing to say, G, in fact quite the opposite. Have you misread his post?

See post above (#132), Col
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. I still think it could have been better phrased, but having re-read it, Smurf's quite correct in what he said. Always happy to apologise when necessary.

[Dub]

Originally Posted by Dr Shrink
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I merely ventured an opinion that Martis had a 'bombscare afternoon'. Prompted simply by Murder's astonishing award of MOM to Martis when I thought he had a very edgy day..

I don't think I have scapegoated the guy or indeed vilified him in any way.
However, I object to my post being linked to any hints of racism.

Anyone who suggests that my (frankly rather innocuous) post on Maris is any anyway influenced by the colour of his skin is not only completely wrong but clearly a bit stupid.
The fact that the same poster also said "Simple bland assertions don't get you very far I'm afraid" yet sees nothing wrong with suggesting that Bouncers are racist for making comment on a players performance seems a fine example of double standards.
However, I won't labour the point. If Crabit thinks I'm a racist then I'll just have to live with that. I don't intend to debate the point.

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As someone else said "I just don't have David Attenborough's patience when dealing with lower life forms"


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Might not be racist doc but its definately spudist, look how down the poor chap looks

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and heres a real one, no less discomfited by your review of it

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[Dr Shrink]

Originally Posted by Dub
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Might not be racist doc but its definately spudist, look how down the poor chap looks

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and heres a real one, no less discomfited by your review of it

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Trust you to chip in.
Does that make me a tattie-muncher then?
Or is it a spud-basher?


Bugger.

[Dub]

Originally Posted by Dr Shrink
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Trust you to chip in.
Does that make me a tattie-muncher then?
Or is it a spud-basher?


Bugger.

Are you going through tomorrow night Doc. If so what pub are you going to..if not you'll get roasted
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[Smurf]

Originally Posted by oo2beahibby
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Because creed, colour or nationality should play no part in your reasoning if you're going to criticise a player.

That's entirely the point i thought i had made..

My point was that we're fecked if it's okay to say "Jones, you're shite." but to say "Martis, you're shite," will lead to an allegation of possible racism..

Originally Posted by oo2beahibby
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Having re-read it again, I'll withdraw and apologise for the racist bit,

Accepted dude.

However, it's a serious thing to raise and perhaps folk should think it through before making such points!!

Originally Posted by oo2beahibby
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but I still think it wisnae the brightest idea to phrase your point in the manner you did, and would refer you to my original point as to why.

I don't understand.. why not?

The line again was "If we get into a situation where we can be more vocal of our criticism of a white Scottish player than we can of a non white non Scottish player then we're fecked."

I stand by it 100%.

Obviously we don't read this in the same way..

Say Thomas Sowunmi plays tomorrow evening and misses a couple of absolute sitters are we going to think "I better not post that "he's pish" because there might be a racism allegation from another poster attached to such a post..." but as Fletcher also had a pish game the safer thread is to say "he's pish".

My point was that if that's where we are heading then we're fecked and i stand by that.

Originally Posted by oo2beahibby
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As far as I'm concerned, it's fair play to say either: "Martis, you're shite," or "Jones, you're shite." It's the use of adjectives that describe either their skin colour or nationality that would make such remarks racist.

Of course.

Did i say anything different?

Originally Posted by oo2beahibby
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Conversely, anyone who suggests that someone who criticises a black player is racist has issues too.

Agreed. Why i said what i did!!

[Dr Shrink]

Originally Posted by crabit
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If that fact makes you uncomfortable then you are probably right in ignoring what I say.

There's better reasons than that for ignoring what you say.


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[crabit]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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My point was that we're fecked if it's okay to say "Jones, you're shite." but to say "Martis, you're shite," will lead to an allegation of possible racism..


"If we get into a situation where we can be more vocal of our criticism of a white Scottish player than we can of a non white non Scottish player then we're fecked.

There isn't the slightest rational scenario in which we can get within a million miles of these situations arrising. Totally rediculous points to make! I don't have the slightest problem with you criticising Martis - but I do think the litany of gross insults which head off this thread are shocking and worthy of comment!

I have read 3 reports of this game none of which are critical of Martis so it isn't me that is out of step in thinking he had a fine game - no donkey as far as I am concerned!