What's The Plan Sir Tom & Mr Petrie?

[Smurf]

No organisation or business in the world can know exactly, for sure, where it’s going. In the world of football, where the normal rules of business go out the window, it must be virtually impossible at times to project and forecast a business plan.

At Hibernian Football Club, it does appear that there is an incredible stubbornness, in the ongoing relentless quest for tough fiscal disciplines. In every interview with the Easter Road Chairman Rod Petrie we hear the language of “incremental and sustainable growth” and “Prudence” etc to the extent that you almost feel that the Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown is the Chairman of Hibernian Football Club at times.

Of course in order to appeal to the masses, and establish his Prime Ministerial credentials, Gordon Brown is looking to shake of the dour ‘Facts & Figures’ image and go out and share the ‘Vision’. The vision of how “Incremental and sustainable growth” benefits the stakeholders in society. Perhaps the time has now come for Rod Petrie and Sir Tom Farmer to do likewise at Hibernian Football Club?

Just what is the plan? Where are the club going? What’s the ambitions? How will we get there? What’s the targets? How will this be achieved? What’s the objectives?

To all of it the Hibernian supporter has no idea. Take the lack of training facilities. As Tony Mowbray said, “Do they know what sort of budget Hibs work under? That they train on school fields and parks, with dogs running round and kids hanging off crossbars? I don’t think they do because in England everyone has a training ground. I don’t think they could believe that a club in Edinburgh, a club with a name like Hibs, has to beg, borrow and steal training facilities.” Previously the Easter Road Chairman has been quoted as saying that yes it’s a priority but the training facilities this year are better than last year, and that they are working on ensuring the facilities next year are better than this year.. It’s not exactly seriously addressing the problem is it? Just what are they doing? Why won’t they come out and reveal the plan or come out and be brutally honest with the situation?

Truth be told the finances are such at Easter Road that no supporter of Hibs seriously expects, at this moment in time, for our great club to be competing at the top scale of Scottish Football in terms of being a Scottish Champions League representative etc. It’s just not realistic. Indeed, if the current custodians of the proud name of Hibernian Football Club Sir Tom Farmer (90%) and Rod Petrie (10%) were to were to undertake a ‘Speculate To Accumulate’ policy of borrowing more to challenge at this end in the way of the so called ‘Vladimar Romanov Revolution’ I suspect the vast majority of the Easter Road paying public would not be sitting easy in our shinny Green plastic Easter Road seats. Indeed, if it was the Green & White half of Edinburgh that Vladimar Romanov was taking on his credit card spree, I just know many many more questions would by this point, have been asked, with answers demanded.

There are no looks of envy from us Hibby’s over to the unpermanent home of the establishment football club of Edinburgh. The only thing certain of their future is uncertainty. When all you can do is ‘Believe’ with no evidence to give belief it’s a very dangerous path to be on.

I think though, that it’s too easy for us to get caught up on the on-going saga at Tynecastle. What us Hibby’s need to do is look at our affairs. Our priority is our Football Club.

It’s incredible to think that we have been owned now by a non football man Sir Tom Farmer for nearly 16 years. There are a wide range of opinions on the club in such ownership. Ranging from those in the majority who are so indebted to the man who saved the club in our hour of need, that it would be outrageous to question any of his motives and actions as majority shareholder, to those who feel it is now time to move on from the past and look at the future, and what are indeed the motives and actions required to ensure the future of Hibernian Football Club. A future where we look beyond merely existing in survival mode, but to one of achievement, as a club of the history and heritage of Hibs, based in our capital city, should be.

Our manager revealed several weeks ago, that he doesn’t see himself at the club for any more than 4 years. Since he made that statement, his media comments have, if anything, revealed his departure is more likely to be sooner rather than later. It’s went from not being if, but when, to him almost desperately flashing his CV to any prospective employer.

On Wednesday 19th April it is reported that the English FA will confirm the appointment of Middlesborough manager Steve McLaren. The reported replacement is Martin O’Neil but should he accept the Newcastle job instead then the comments from our manager Tony Mowbray last week take on far greater significance, “You don’t go for the romantic choice, you go for the choice that is best for the club because you have got a responsibility to the Middlesbrough fans. It’s not, ‘Give it to Tony Mowbray because he’s a good lad and used to play for the Boro. In 1986, when they were on they were arses, he was captain’. That won’t happen, if Steve McClaren goes and their chairman thinks that Tony Mowbray is the best man for the job, he’ll probably make the call to my chairman and ask the question and then we’ll have a decision to make, but at this moment we don’t have a decision to make.”

I have a hunch that Tony Mowbray, will remain our manager as he’s not quite ready and will be linked with literally every English Championship position this summer. Ipswich Town will I fear be the only real danger to the loss of Tony Mowbray to the cause of Hibernian Football Club.

So we know the intentions of the Manager and having listened and read to the actual players, we know the intentions of the players. Although, of course, with Derek Riordan it differs depending on who you speak to..

However, what we don’t know, which is ultimately of more concern to us supporters, or should be, is the intentions of Sir Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie. Do they see themselves as Hibernian Football Club owner and Chairman in 5 years time? 10 years time? What's the plan?

[Cowshed Graffiti]

Top post. Expresses all our frustrations. I'd say this, though. Vlad the Impala's regime has changed the way I think of Petrie. Sure, the club are tight-fisted. Sure, there is no vision. Sure, they stumbled on Mowbray because he was cheap and were fortunate he is a good manager. (And he is.) Sure, we have to rely on young players and Bosmans. Sure, some of us still live in fear of Straiton II, especially with the way the ground is owned. Sure, there will be no big lump of investment.

But because of the way the club is run, Hibs will still be in business if five years. And there is a very real prospect that Hearts will not.

That's not just wishful thinking (I don't want Hearts to disappear). Football's changed. And racking up unsustainable £20m debts is no longer the fashionable or smart thing to do.

Vlad or STF? Give me STF any day of the week - and not just because we know how he made his millions.

[Bossie]

Originally Posted by Smurf

What's the plan?

I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Are you expecting Hibs to lay bare their operaitonal plan for the next five/ten years? Or are you looking for a vision of where Hibs will be in that time?

If it is the first of these you have no chance is it cannot and will not exist. If it is a vision of the future then the information is pretty much already available:


- steadily grow revenues by whatever means possible
- align costs anbd revenues at a sustainable level
- get the debt down to a comfortable level
- make investments in the club (e.g. training facilities) as and when finances allow
- continue to rely on a young/hungry squad with a sprinkling of experience thrown in
- ensure the club is as compeititive as possible within the financial constraints that we have.

How much more can really be said?

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Bossie

I'm not sure what the point of this post is.

I remember you used to say the same with literally every anti Boaby Williamson post from me and any other anti Boaby poster..

I suspect Sir Tom Farmer wants out and the club is being prepared for sale. If it isn't then there are other issues.

[Bossie]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I remember you used to say the same with literally every anti Boaby Williamson post from me and any other anti Boaby poster..

I suspect Sir Tom Farmer wants out and the club is being prepared for sale. If it isn't then there are other issues.

And, strangely enough, people are still not happy. C'est la vie.

I understand the frustrations from your post, but I'm still not sure what you expect from the club that you are don't know just now.

[southfieldhibby]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I suspect Sir Tom Farmer wants out and the club is being prepared for sale.

Definately. I'd wager a new majority share-holder within 2 years.

[oo2beahibby]

So many questions...

I think you've answered most of them with your first and last points. Football is fairly volatile in the world of business, therefore the need to remain within the confines to a flexible business plan, whilst retaining a sensible fiscal policy is the only way forward. That's the only way the club will be in existence in 5-10 years time. As for plans that far ahead, there ain't a business in the world that projects so far forward.

One thing is for sure; with the exception of maybe 20 clubs in the world, the only way to end up with a small fortune from football AND be successful is to begin with a big fortune.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by southfieldhibby

Definately. I'd wager a new majority share-holder within 2 years.

I hope you are right.

Overall Sir Tom has been good for the club but it's time to move on. In recognition of the contribution made to the club in ensuring that we stay at Easter Road i would like to see the main stand named the 'Sir Tom Farmer' Stand.

[Bossie]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I hope you are right.

Overall Sir Tom has been good for the club but it's time to move on. In recognition of the contribution made to the club in ensuring that we stay at Easter Road i would like to see the main stand named the 'Sir Tom Farmer' Stand.

I'm not sure that this would answer the points you raised. If Farmer wants out, and someone is prepared to divvy up the necessary wonga to purchase his shareholding, then so what?

The future direction of the club would then be set by the new geezer. Such a person might want to keep the club on the same path, invest heavily for growth, start a debenture scheme for limited investments, tear the stadium down and relocate the club, flog off as many assets as possible etc. etc.

In short, there is nowt much to think about here until Farmer receives an offer that is sufficently attractive to consider.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Bossie

I'm not sure that this would answer the points you raised. If Farmer wants out, and someone is prepared to divvy up the necessary wonga to purchase his shareholding, then so what?

The future direction of the club would then be set by the new geezer. Such a person might want to keep the club on the same path, invest heavily for growth, start a debenture scheme for limited investments, tear the stadium down and relocate the club, flog off as many assets as possible etc. etc.

In short, there is nowt much to think about here until Farmer receives an offer that is sufficently attractive to consider.

So there is no point in asking whether Sir Tom has a longer term objective at the club and no point in asking what they objectives are.

Nowt to think about.

[©stretch]

Originally Posted by Bossie

I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Are you expecting Hibs to lay bare their operaitonal plan for the next five/ten years? Or are you looking for a vision of where Hibs will be in that time?

If it is the first of these you have no chance is it cannot and will not exist. If it is a vision of the future then the information is pretty much already available:


- steadily grow revenues by whatever means possible
- align costs anbd revenues at a sustainable level
- get the debt down to a comfortable level
- make investments in the club (e.g. training facilities) as and when finances allow
- continue to rely on a young/hungry squad with a sprinkling of experience thrown in
- ensure the club is as compeititive as possible within the financial constraints that we have.

How much more can really be said?

Maybe I've picked you or Smurf up wrongly so apologys if I have Smurf makes good points as you do. BUT Smurf is looking for a bit of clarity,

Your points above are very good but nobody at ER has openly come out with a business plan that will appease the support. In fact they have told us feck all. Maybe a wee word or two from tom/rod would settle the fans for a bit

[Bossie]

Originally Posted by Smurf

So there is no point in asking whether Sir Tom has a longer term objective at the club and no point in asking what they objectives are.

Nowt to think about.

The objectives of the club as they stand are crystal.

If you are asking if Farmer would sell, of course he would if the deems the offer right for both himself and the club.

I'm still not sure what extra information you would expect to be getting that isn't known already.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Bossie

If it is a vision of the future then the information is pretty much already available:

Great as most Hibby's i know are completely unsure..

Originally Posted by Bossie

- steadily grow revenues by whatever means possible

What means then? Sounds a bit vague..

Originally Posted by Bossie

- align costs anbd revenues at a sustainable level

What are the targets for revenues or is the focus just on ensuring the costs are not greater?

Originally Posted by Bossie

- get the debt down to a comfortable level

Great. It's come down quite a lot. Isn't the vast majority of the current debt long term mortgages on the Stadium? As Sir Tom said to a table of Bouncers in 2003 the average Man/Woman doresn't include their outstanding mortgage on their property as a "debt" so why do football clubs?

So with the £1.6 Million from Garry O'Connor wiping off more of the true debt what is the debt and the debt excluding the long term mortgages?

Originally Posted by Bossie

- make investments in the club (e.g. training facilities) as and when finances allow

What timescale? Next year? 5 years? 10 Years? See we don't know Bossie! Highlights the point of the thread..

Originally Posted by Bossie

- continue to rely on a young/hungry squad with a sprinkling of experience thrown in

The problem is that there is no budget to get in the "Sprinkling of Experience" as Tony Mowbray alludes to in his outburst in every Sunday newspaper..

Originally Posted by Bossie

- ensure the club is as compeititive as possible within the financial constraints that we have.

It's all sounding a bit vague Bossie..

Originally Posted by Bossie

- How much more can really be said?

Not a lot it would appear.

[Bossie]

Originally Posted by ©stretch

Maybe I've picked you or Smurf up wrongly so apologys if I have Smurf makes good points as you do. BUT Smurf is looking for a bit of clarity,

Your points above are very good but nobody at ER has openly come out with a business plan that will appease the support. In fact they have told us feck all. Maybe a wee word or two from tom/rod would settle the fans for a bit

Fair enough - I'm not arguing about current frustrations, but more about what other information can be realistically expected from the club.

As in any company, future revenue and cost projections and all that good stuff are highly confidential - quite reasonable too since such projections will ll be based upon confidential commercial discussions.

All you can really expect the club, or any company for that matter, to release are the type of broad general statements that are already well-known. We all may crave more and more information but if the club has nowt concrete to tell then there isn't much to be said, and nor should there be IMHO.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Bossie

Fair enough - I'm not arguing about current frustrations, but more about what other information can be realistically expected from the club.

As in any company, future revenue and cost projections and all that good stuff are highly confidential - quite reasonable too since such projections will ll be based upon confidential commercial discussions.

All you can really expect the club, or any company for that matter, to release are the type of broad general statements that are already well-known. We all may crave more and more information but if the club has nowt concrete to tell then there isn't much to be said, and nor should there be IMHO.

Fine well you know Bossie i never asked for "future revenue and cost projections" to be released or announced.

All i asked for was the vision.

Big BIG difference. So what is it?

[Cowshed Graffiti]

Originally Posted by southfieldhibby

Definately. I'd wager a new majority share-holder within 2 years.

What we need, though, is an owner who will not just guarantee our debt a la Vlad but actually give tens of millions to the club after buying it. Just building up financial trouble for the future while a sugar daddy tells you not to worry about it now is a recipe for disaster.

I'd love to see the Hibee version of Jack Walker hove into view, but I don't think it will happen.

[Bossie]

Originally Posted by Smurf

Great as most Hibby's i know are completely unsure..




What means then? Sounds a bit vague..



What are the targets for revenues or is the focus just on ensuring the costs are not greater?



Great. It's come down quite a lot. Isn't the vast majority of the current debt long term mortgages on the Stadium? As Sir Tom said to a table of Bouncers in 2003 the average Man/Woman doresn't include their outstanding mortgage on their property as a "debt" so why do football clubs?

So with the £1.6 Million from Garry O'Connor wiping off more of the true debt what is the debt and the debt excluding the long term mortgages?



What timescale? Next year? 5 years? 10 Years? See we don't know Bossie! Highlights the point of the thread..



The problem is that there is no budget to get in the "Sprinkling of Experience" as Tony Mowbray alludes to in his outburst in every Sunday newspaper..



It's all sounding a bit vague Bossie..



Not a lot it would appear.

This illustrates the point exactly - getting access to just about every bit of information you are after would be likely to breach commercially sensitive discussions that the club is involved in.

For example do you really expect to know things like the details of any commercial discussions Hibs may be having with the council, or any other party, over a training facility? All that any organisations, including Hibs and the council, could ever tell you is that discussions are underway. And quite right too.

So, although you might want such information, I dinnae fancy your chances of ever getting it until deals are done and the paperwork signed. And, personally, I reckon that is absolutely the right approach for any organisation to take.

However, I'm more than happy to nominate you for a seat on the board, just as long as you promise not to share any commercially confidential information that you may acquire as a result.

[Bossie]

Originally Posted by Smurf

All i asked for was the vision.

Big BIG difference. So what is it?

- steadily grow revenues by whatever means possible
- align costs anbd revenues at a sustainable level
- get the debt down to a comfortable level
- make investments in the club (e.g. training facilities) as and when finances allow
- continue to rely on a young/hungry squad with a sprinkling of experience thrown in
- ensure the club is as compeititive as possible within the financial constraints that we have.