the BNP's best recruiting sergeants

[egb_hibs]

whether it's ken livingstone astonishingly describing the london youth violence problem as being about white kids stabbing white kids, or the independent swooping in on the back of this poor kid being killed in dewsbury, to do a piece on the 'white gangs' that have the place in fear, when in fact it looks like the kid was killed in an intra-asian scrap (sadly you can imagine a form of disappointment in certain editorial offices as this came out)...

A Yorkshire town that has become a battleground for feuding gangs - Crime, UK - The Independent

...i can't help feeling that this seeming bien pensant inclination to simply deny reality, or at best focus on only one part of reality, is exactly the sort of thing that is generating support for the BNP.

thoughts?

[superbam]

whether it's ken livingstone astonishingly describing the london youth violence problem as being about white kids stabbing white kids, or the independent swooping in on the back of this poor kid being killed in dewsbury, to do a piece on the 'white gangs' that have the place in fear, when in fact it looks like the kid was killed in an intra-asian scrap (sadly you can imagine a form of disappointment in certain editorial offices as this came out)...

And delight in others no doubt

...i can't help feeling that this seeming bien pensant inclination to simply deny reality, or at best focus on only one part of reality, is exactly the sort of thing that is generating support for the BNP.

What reality do you mean?

This isnt something specific to immigrant communities. It happens in Dewsbury, it happens in Glasgow, it happens in London and it happens here in Dublin and the one thing such incidents tend to have in common is that they take place in poorer areas.

[Stirlinghibee]

Originally Posted by superbam

And delight in others no doubt



What reality do you mean?

This isnt something specific to immigrant communities. It happens in Dewsbury, it happens in Glasgow, it happens in London and it happens here in Dublin and the one thing such incidents tend to have in common is that they take place in poorer areas.

Another thing we see is that gang culture gives these kids a sense of identity. All the names in Dewsbury are replicated by the numerous "yung teams" and "mental crews" that blight central Scotland.

There is actually nothing really new in all this. If you watch the film "small faces" you can see what we were like 40 years ago. The only thing that has changed is the ability for wideos to use modern mass communications to make their paga's better organised.

In my day it was "Thurs been a groop o Sauchie boays seen up by the chip shoap, git yer docs oan!"

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by superbam

What reality do you mean?

This isnt something specific to immigrant communities. It happens in Dewsbury, it happens in Glasgow, it happens in London and it happens here in Dublin and the one thing such incidents tend to have in common is that they take place in poorer areas.

er, no it isn't specific to immigrant communities, or indeed any others, that's the point i'm making.

it's sorts like ken, the indy and the guardian who seek to present only only one aspect of the problem - or, in ken's case, a complete misrepresentation of the problem - that are misleading on this point.

and thus they sew the resentment from which the BNP gain a healthy crop.

honest to feck; imagine the spate of london killings were almost exclusively white on white, and ken described it as a black problem. people would quite rightly call him to account, and perhaps more than that, suspect his motives. it's no different the other way around. and i do suspect his motives; i don't think he's that thick that it could be an accident.

[superbam]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

er, no it isn't specific to immigrant communities, or indeed any others, that's the point i'm making.

it's sorts like ken, the indy and the guardian who seek to present only only one aspect of the problem - or, in ken's case, a complete misrepresentation of the problem - that are misleading on this point.

and thus they sew the resentment from which the BNP gain a healthy crop.

honest to feck; imagine the spate of london killings were almost exclusively white on white, and ken described it as a black problem. people would quite rightly call him to account, and perhaps more than that, suspect his motives. it's no different the other way around. and i do suspect his motives; i don't think he's that thick that it could be an accident.

Its ridiculous to attribute the problem to any particular ethnic group, whether its the BNP or Ken Livingstone. The roots of it have fuck all to do with race. I am sceptical however of how much clout the guardian and independent have in communities where the BNP are getting votes.

I also certainly do not see how the problem has been presented in the popular media generally as a "white thing". There seems to be plenty documentaries and editorials examining it, particularly in London, as a "black on black" thing.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by superbam

Its ridiculous to attribute the problem to any particular ethnic group, whether its the BNP or Ken Livingstone. The roots of it have fuck all to do with race. I am sceptical however of how much clout the guardian and independent have in communities where the BNP are getting votes.

I also certainly do not see how the problem has been presented in the popular media generally as a "white thing". There seems to be plenty documentaries and editorials examining it, particularly in London, as a "black on black" thing.

the point is - and this comes through loud and clear in any reportage on where and why the working class are turning towards the BNP - they feel they are being discriminated against and misrepresented by an elite that favours immigrants and despises them. you can haul out all the stats you like to argue otherwise, but one people like livingstone say such things, and when the establishment media covers stories selectively and one sidedly it's only going to have one effect. you may say the indy and guardian aren't that influential, but they along with the bbc are the house media stable of labour, who are the party that are losing these people. i don't think this is wholly unconnected.

the bien pensant sorts who now run labour, insulate themselves in an alternate picture of reality that they report to themselves. this influences there views on social problems, the working class etc, and influences the direction of the labour party and it's response to the same. and so the wheel goes around, and labour lose and the bnp gain. no, i don't think it's unconnected at all.

ps - you go to far in your first sentence; it's entirely appropriate to ask what is wrong with black youth culture in london or with weegie youth culture, that leads to so much violence affecting youths within those groups. that is entirely rational and indeed necessary based on the evidence. closing ones eyes to that is just as damaging as the stuff described above. blaming everything solely on poverty is outmoded and unhelpful. others are right about gang culture - the contributions to it's formation within afflicted communities need to be looked at closely.

[jetsam1]

Dewsbury is not a nice place.


Like a lot of West Yorkshire it can be pretty rough! Why concentrate on the race angle? Largely it's people from all "communities" causing bother.

I thinhk people start to lose sight of the simple fact a young lad was stabbed to death and go for their own agendas. I wonder how much of it is due to "socio-economic" factors etc.

Oh yeah F++k the BNP.

[jetsam1]

Just so there is no equivovcation:


I hate the BNP and would like to [petrolbomb their faces.


One of the very few times I could ever be violent really..................

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by jetsam1

Just so there is no equivovcation:


I hate the BNP and would like to [petrolbomb their faces.


One of the very few times I could ever be violent really..................

steady on.

it's telling in itself that someone feels they need to be so overt in proving they're not like a closet bnp man if they comment on these subjects at all. don't worry dude it came over loud and clear in your first post.

[jetsam1]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

steady on.

it's telling in itself that someone feels they need to be so overt in proving they're not like a closet bnp man if they comment on these subjects at all. don't worry dude it came over loud and clear in your first post.

Yeah sorry! Re-reading it kind of doesn't come accross well at all! lol! Whoops!

It's just the BNP are an undercurrent round here. THey have a couple of councillors and they an option on our local ballot papers. Kind of brings it home you could say.

It's also this stupid hayfever making me irritable!

[superbam]

the point is - and this comes through loud and clear in any reportage on where and why the working class are turning towards the BNP - they feel they are being discriminated against and misrepresented by an elite that favours immigrants and despises them. you can haul out all the stats you like to argue otherwise, but one people like livingstone say such things, and when the establishment media covers stories selectively and one sidedly it's only going to have one effect. you may say the indy and guardian aren't that influential, but they along with the bbc are the house media stable of labour, who are the party that are losing these people. i don't think this is wholly unconnected.

Presumably you consider the independent and the guardian to be the "establishment media". I think thats attributing undue influence to them both. The Guardian is equally, if not more, critical of new labour than the majority of papers. If these papers were the establishment, and some vague pro-ethnic minority agenda was among estqablishment values, then i doubt we would find our establishment party trying to exploit ethnic tensions so brazenly as Labour attempted to in the recent by-election.

Of considerably more influence on people and policy are the tabloid press, who can hardly be accused of covering such stories selectively (or certainly not in the way you are suggesting livingstone and the guardian have been).

I have to admit I have not detected any of the bias you mention in the BBC, I dont see it as much now but im sure you will be able to enlighten me.

it's formation within afflicted communities need to be looked at closelyps - you go to far in your first sentence; it's entirely appropriate to ask what is wrong with black youth culture in london or with weegie youth culture, that leads to so much violence affecting youths within those groups. that is entirely rational and indeed necessary based on the evidence. closing ones eyes to that is just as damaging as the stuff described above. blaming everything solely on poverty is outmoded and unhelpful.

I dont think I do go too far. I said its ridiculous to attribute the problem to any particular ethnic group. It is ridiculous. I agree that culturally specific factors within afflicted communities need to be examined. However since we have seen similar problems across Britain and Ireland, Western Europe and beyond among communites of different ethnic make-ups, I think it is folly to dismiss the characteristics the afflicted areas share in common. And one of these is not ethnicity.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by superbam

And delight in others no doubt



What reality do you mean?

This isnt something specific to immigrant communities. It happens in Dewsbury, it happens in Glasgow, it happens in London and it happens here in Dublin and the one thing such incidents tend to have in common is that they take place in poorer areas.

Race is a common factor in most of the teenage stabbings in London mostly the victim is "non-white" and the perpetrator is almost always - at least in the report incidents. Its the elephant in the room that everyone likes to ignore, which I don't think helps. A persons race is not as much of an issue as the fact that we have imported a great many unskilled people and stuck them on sink estates where they are condemned to a dead end life due to poor education, poor social skills and the prevalence of a criminal culture and few good adult male role models. The result would be the same no matter what folks colours but the roots of the problem are many fold from family breakdown and uncontrolled immigration to low quality policing, education and housing.....and the fact that some people are thick violent morons.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by superbam

Presumably you consider the independent and the guardian to be the "establishment media". I think thats attributing undue influence to them both. The Guardian is equally, if not more, critical of new labour than the majority of papers. If these papers were the establishment, and some vague pro-ethnic minority agenda was among estqablishment values, then i doubt we would find our establishment party trying to exploit ethnic tensions so brazenly as Labour attempted to in the recent by-election.

Of considerably more influence on people and policy are the tabloid press, who can hardly be accused of covering such stories selectively (or certainly not in the way you are suggesting livingstone and the guardian have been).

I have to admit I have not detected any of the bias you mention in the BBC, I dont see it as much now but im sure you will be able to enlighten me.

it's scarcely credible you've failed to detect bias in the bbc which has been found guility of a PC bias and set of assumptions by internal reports, external reports, out of the mouths of senior figures there...numerous of which have been members of the labour party. i guess it comes back to my point that it's hard to distinguish the orthodoxy when it's so pervasive. i will agree however, that they are not in the tabloid class of the guardian or ken's brazen mendacity.

speaking of brazen; as for the guardian and the indy, they - the former especially - are brazenly the establishment press, being the papers of the islington set who run labour.

they may have criticised labour - from the metropolitan liberal position - on the iraq war (the party, in the final analysis, needs to compromise with reality in the way it's constituent class never have to, but that is the eternal condition of all flavours of the left) - but that was in boom times. it's nakedly partisan tactics in the london mayoral contest and over the crewe election have discredited it in the eyes of many.

you can rail about the sun all you like, but it's the guardian readers that run this country.

I dont think I do go too far. I said its ridiculous to attribute the problem to any particular ethnic group. It is ridiculous. I agree that culturally specific factors within afflicted communities need to be examined. However since we have seen similar problems across Britain and Ireland, Western Europe and beyond among communites of different ethnic make-ups, I think it is folly to dismiss the characteristics the afflicted areas share in common. And one of these is not ethnicity.

not sure what to make of this, you seem to simultaneously agree and disagree with me.

what would be ridiculous would be to dismiss as coincidence the problem with black violence in london. i continue to suspect that there is indeed an ethnic dimension; namely that black boys ape the tropes of american 'gangsta' culture, presented to them via hip hop. in this i am in line with black thinkers on both sides of the pond. white liberals tend to scoff but then i suspect they're so used to living vicariously and avoiding consequences, that it's hard for them to conceive how street kids may respond to these messages.

anyway, i may be wrong, but it's one line of enquiry. but to dismiss that one section of the community clearly seems to have a problem seems to me to be a poor subsitute for critical thought.

up here there is clearly something awry in strathclyde meanwhile; it's less clear to me what that might be; while poverty is inevitably the backdrop like you say, their is poverty on tayside, in edinburgh and so on, but our youth violence doesn't tend to be so lethal, thank goodness.

finally i would say that i all of us who consider ourselves to be progressive so say a big fuck you to pc sensibilities - in this area like so many others they seem to me to be an impediment to helping those they seek to patronise.

[Stanton Warrior]

Originally Posted by Colr

Race is a common factor in most of the teenage stabbings in London mostly the victim is "non-white" and the perpetrator is almost always - at least in the report incidents. Its the elephant in the room that everyone likes to ignore, which I don't think helps. A persons race is not as much of an issue as the fact that we have imported a great many unskilled people and stuck them on sink estates where they are condemned to a dead end life due to poor education, poor social skills and the prevalence of a criminal culture and few good adult male role models. The result would be the same no matter what folks colours but the roots of the problem are many fold from family breakdown and uncontrolled immigration to low quality policing, education and housing.....and the fact that some people are thick violent morons.

Race is almost always an angle that comes out later in an investigation.
Some people will use it as an excuse for their actions whilst other people will make wild presumptions about it as a motivating/mitigating factor (Depending on your viewpoint) regardless of knowing anything else about the incident than what they can see on first glance.
If the first thing they see is that person A is White and person B is Black (Feel free to insert any other visible racial groups in these spaces) then, knowing no more about why an incident occurred, they will start to guess that it was to do with race.
It's human nature, the mind likes to problem solve. You witness a stabbing, your first instinct is to think "Why the hell did that happen?" You take all the information which is on offer to you at the time and answer your own question "Well it must be a racial thing" This is because the race of both parties is one of the only things you know about it having seen them both. You know NOTHING about why this has happened but your brain doesn't like not having an answer to it's question so you make presumptions. We all do it. It's normal but it doesn't make it right or accurate.
The moment a member of the public announces this "guess" to a police officer the good book states that it's a racial incident and that's what goes on the crime report and that's what the press get told and that's what they report. Hence the perception that almost all of these incidents are to do with race.........



.....THEY'RE NOT!!!!!



They're to do with drugs, Money, So called disrespect, and a million other factors that i can't be arsed to list. But the key relevant factor that's always present is the one i've highlighted in Col's post. Some people are just twats.

[Archie]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

it's scarcely credible you've failed to detect bias in the bbc which has been found guility of a PC bias and set of assumptions by internal reports, external reports, out of the mouths of senior figures there...numerous of which have been members of the labour party.

You keep banging on about this - what is your source? I suspect it is a Daily Mail article which was refuted by the BBC. I know who I'd believe.
BBC NEWS | The Editors

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Archie

You keep banging on about this - what is your source? I suspect it is a Daily Mail article which was refuted by the BBC. I know who I'd believe.
BBC NEWS | The Editors

why do you suspect it is a daily mail article?

i don't read the daily mail as i have pointed out innumerable times. it seems to be a pavlovian reaction.

anyway; for details of internal reviews i commend 'can we trust the bbc?' by robin aitken; paperback is available in waterstones.

for external reviews i commend the tait report.

out of the mouths of:

Andrew Marr (former labour member, married to daughter of former labour mp, and barking guardianista):

"The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It's a publicly funded urban organisation, with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities and gay people, it has a liberal bias not so much a party political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias."

Jeff Randall, former business editor:

""It's a bit like walking into a Sunday meeting of the Flat Earth Society. As they discuss great issues of the day, they discuss them from the point of view that the earth is flat. If someone says, 'No, no, no, the earth is round!', they think this person is an extremist. That's what it's like for someone with my right-of-centre views working inside the BBC."

"'It's not a conspiracy. It's visceral. They think they are on the middle ground"

Jeremy Paxman:

"People who know a lot more than I do may be right when they claim that [global warming] is the consequence of our own behaviour. I assume that this is why the BBC's coverage of the issue abandoned the pretence of impartiality long ago"

James Naughtie to Ed Balls:

"If we win the election.....er....If you win the election."


There's plenty more out there for those that have google.

Labour apparatchiks past and present, mr marr again, greg dyke, john birt...

by the way, i know who you'd believe too. that's my point.

in reality, there is no more reason to trust the beeb than the mail. and i find it quite comical that you're taking a denial by helen boaden as 'case closed'.

[superbam]

speaking of brazen; as for the guardian and the indy, they - the former especially - are brazenly the establishment press, being the papers of the islington set who run labour.

What happens then when the tories take power after the next general election? Will we then have a right-wing establishment?

they may have criticised labour - from the metropolitan liberal position - on the iraq war (the party, in the final analysis, needs to compromise with reality in the way it's constituent class never have to, but that is the eternal condition of all flavours of the left)

Opposition to the war on Iraq has hardly been restricted to "metropolitan liberals" as you put it. That is a fantasy.

you can rail about the sun all you like, but it's the guardian readers that run this country.

Soon to be the telegraph readers then.

what would be ridiculous would be to dismiss as coincidence the problem with black violence in london. i continue to suspect that there is indeed an ethnic dimension; namely that black boys ape the tropes of american 'gangsta' culture, presented to them via hip hop. in this i am in line with black thinkers on both sides of the pond. white liberals tend to scoff but then i suspect they're so used to living vicariously and avoiding consequences, that it's hard for them to conceive how street kids may respond to these messages.

anyway, i may be wrong, but it's one line of enquiry. but to dismiss that one section of the community clearly seems to have a problem seems to me to be a poor subsitute for critical thought.

It is not doing critical thought any service to wilfully downplay the signifigance of factors that are prevalent in all these sections of the community and are not specific to ethnicity.

As I said before, culture-specific factors must be examined, it would be daft to ignore them. But more daft is to place an emphasis on cultural factors specific to particular ethnic communities that may be contributing factors, (when we can see these problems are experienced across all sorts of ethnic groups) at the expense of the many characteristics that afflicted communities, regardless of their ethnic composition, share in common.

up here there is clearly something awry in strathclyde meanwhile; it's less clear to me what that might be; while poverty is inevitably the backdrop like you say, their is poverty on tayside, in edinburgh and so on, but our youth violence doesn't tend to be so lethal, thank goodness.

Im not really sure how much you can say its something specific to the west of scotland. There is similar youth violence in parts of edinburgh and tayside, but Glasgow has considerably higher levels of poverty and a much higher population that live in the kind of areas afflicted with these types of problems. I dont think it is therefore simply a coincidence that there is more of an issue in the weege, or that there is necessarily something specific to the weegie mentality that leads to kids paggering than other urban areas in Scotland.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by superbam

What happens then when the tories take power after the next general election? Will we then have a right-wing establishment?

it will take a lot to shift the incumbents in the BBC, the unis, and the judiciary, but it's conceivable that it could happen.

Opposition to the war on Iraq has hardly been restricted to "metropolitan liberals" as you put it. That is a fantasy.

whoever said it was? thats a complete straw man. i was responding to your specific point about the liberal media's critique of the war.