TV Killing Scottish Football ?

[am_moroccan]

Times -

March 22, 2008

Scottish game left running on empty by television and police rules

The demands of programme schedules and all-ticket games are draining the lifeblood out of the Premier League, says Phil Gordon

Sometimes it is easier to hear dissent from Tibet than from locations much closer to home. The banner held aloft by a group of Celtic supporters at Pittodrie two weeks ago would have made a great image for most television
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s, but this time the message had no chance of getting through.

It bore the slogan: “Football For Fans - not TV”. The Celtic supporters, who had left long before breakfast to be in the northeast for a 12.45pm kick-off for the Scottish Cup quarter-final, were voicing their unhappiness about paying the price for the armchair audience.

The protest was noted by BBC Radio, and the press box, but the Sky television
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s were not keen on picking it up. Celtic’s travelling support are now used to their away games being moved for live broadcast, but that does little to dispel the sense that the most important contributor to the Clydesdale Bank Premier League, the paying customer, is being given little respect.

It is so long since Celtic had an away game on a Saturday at the traditional 3pm that it was probably filmed in black and white. Rangers are the same. The Old Firm are the staple diet of Setanta, Sky and the BBC for either league or cup games. However, as the scene at Pittodrie betrayed – with thousands of empty red seats – it is the timing of matches and the decision by police forces throughout Scotland to make any away game involving Celtic and Rangers all-ticket that is bleeding the Scottish game of its richest source of revenue – visiting Old Firm fans.

On a weekend when Celtic face Gretna at Almondvale Stadium, viewed by the troubled Border club’s administrator as a financial lifeline, it will be interesting to see how many Celtic fans dip into their own pockets to fund another club, when the game is not only live on Setanta but has also had its location switched from Fir Park to Livingston just a few days ago. Hardly the way to drum up business.

When Gretna took on Celtic at Fir Park earlier in the season, the attendance was 6,011; of that, 5,000 were supplied by Celtic. The reason? Live television, high admission prices and the fact that people had to obtain tickets for an occasion deemed “all-ticket” when the ground was not even half full.

The folly of allowing free reign to the unholy alliance of television and all-ticket games has been most visible this season in the Scottish Cup. In February, the crowd for the Kilmarnock-Celtic tie at Rugby Park was just 6,491 – the lowest for any Old Firm visit in living memory.

Despite the fact that the tie had only been arranged at just four days’ notice, after Kilmarnock beat Airdrie United in a fourth-round replay, Kilmarnock were not allowed by the police to make it “pay at the gate”. Not surprisingly, the appetite for some Celtic supporters to make an extra journey up to their club ticket offices and buy tickets at £25 for a game being broadcast live on terrestrial television and kicking-off on Saturday lunch time, was somewhat diminished. Their response, however, was still better than the home support – two-thirds of of the 6,491 were wearing green and white, while the only blue on show were the thousands of empty Rugby Park seats.

When Celtic went to Pittodrie in the next round, the crowd was just 10,909. Another record low involving an Old Firm visit. And yet, it was the home support who were voting with their feet, not the away ones who had travelled 150 miles. The Celtic allocation of 3,300 was sold out and tickets were like gold-dust – in contrast, barely 7,000 Aberdeen fans bothered, many more settling down in front of the television instead.

Three decades ago, Celtic, or Rangers would have easily taken 20,000 fans to away grounds in Scotland every other Saturday. They would be ferried there on fleets of supporters’ buses. It was that sort of business on which football club treasurers relied upon. It was, to an extent, why the Premier League was created in 1975, with its emphasis on four home games with the Old Firm. Glasgow’s away-day culture was the lifeblood of other top-flight clubs, but now it is swiftly seeping away.

Once the Glasgow evening paper was filled with column inches of all the different branches of the Celtic and Rangers supporters groups, who advertised their bus departure times to away games. Now, it is minimal. A reflection of life in the 21st century, with slavish devotion to the car, or something deeper than that?

A Celtic spokesman confirmed that they have had a reduction in the number of supporters’ clubs who register with them. “The lack of ticket availability for branches for domestic games, and the fact that they are all-ticket, is the biggest problem reported to us,” the spokesman said. “We get less than 2,000 tickets for Falkirk and Tynecastle, and only 3,300 for Pittodrie. By the time those are dispersed, there is not enough for the traditional supporters’ clubs. It is not viable for them to run a bus to away games. Many fans say it is too expensive to go to so many away games. Fewer people, of the older generation, are able to run a bus now and most people would take a car. Once we had 50 buses going to a European tie in Germany. For the recent Champions League game in Barcelona, there was one bus – but more than 10,000 took the plane.”

The change in supporters’ lifestyle is also being noticed at smaller clubs, too. Ross Wayne has been involved in the Falkirk Supporters Club for over ten years. “There has definitely been a decline,” he said. “We have got six buses going to Tynecastle for the game with Hearts, which is not bad, but there used to be between ten and 15.

“The number of travelling fans is down and they are also going in different ways, rather than going on a bus. We are not alone. I have spoken to a Motherwell fan who says their association is now down to two buses. Is it any wonder that away crowds are now down? Admission fees play a part. Our bus has to make extra stops to pick up passengers just to keep the cost down. Ten years ago, we could fill two buses just from one Falkirk pub alone, but not now.”

[Dub]

Originally Posted by am_moroccan
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Times -

March 22, 2008

Scottish game left running on empty by television and police rules

The demands of programme schedules and all-ticket games are draining the lifeblood out of the Premier League, says Phil Gordon

Sometimes it is easier to hear dissent from Tibet than from locations much closer to home. The banner held aloft by a group of Celtic supporters at Pittodrie two weeks ago would have made a great image for most television
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
s, but this time the message had no chance of getting through.

It bore the slogan: “Football For Fans - not TV”. The Celtic supporters, who had left long before breakfast to be in the northeast for a 12.45pm kick-off for the Scottish Cup quarter-final, were voicing their unhappiness about paying the price for the armchair audience.

The protest was noted by BBC Radio, and the press box, but the Sky television
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
s were not keen on picking it up. Celtic’s travelling support are now used to their away games being moved for live broadcast, but that does little to dispel the sense that the most important contributor to the Clydesdale Bank Premier League, the paying customer, is being given little respect.

It is so long since Celtic had an away game on a Saturday at the traditional 3pm that it was probably filmed in black and white. Rangers are the same. The Old Firm are the staple diet of Setanta, Sky and the BBC for either league or cup games. However, as the scene at Pittodrie betrayed – with thousands of empty red seats – it is the timing of matches and the decision by police forces throughout Scotland to make any away game involving Celtic and Rangers all-ticket that is bleeding the Scottish game of its richest source of revenue – visiting Old Firm fans.

On a weekend when Celtic face Gretna at Almondvale Stadium, viewed by the troubled Border club’s administrator as a financial lifeline, it will be interesting to see how many Celtic fans dip into their own pockets to fund another club, when the game is not only live on Setanta but has also had its location switched from Fir Park to Livingston just a few days ago. Hardly the way to drum up business.

When Gretna took on Celtic at Fir Park earlier in the season, the attendance was 6,011; of that, 5,000 were supplied by Celtic. The reason? Live television, high admission prices and the fact that people had to obtain tickets for an occasion deemed “all-ticket” when the ground was not even half full.

The folly of allowing free reign to the unholy alliance of television and all-ticket games has been most visible this season in the Scottish Cup. In February, the crowd for the Kilmarnock-Celtic tie at Rugby Park was just 6,491 – the lowest for any Old Firm visit in living memory.

Despite the fact that the tie had only been arranged at just four days’ notice, after Kilmarnock beat Airdrie United in a fourth-round replay, Kilmarnock were not allowed by the police to make it “pay at the gate”. Not surprisingly, the appetite for some Celtic supporters to make an extra journey up to their club ticket offices and buy tickets at £25 for a game being broadcast live on terrestrial television and kicking-off on Saturday lunch time, was somewhat diminished. Their response, however, was still better than the home support – two-thirds of of the 6,491 were wearing green and white, while the only blue on show were the thousands of empty Rugby Park seats.

When Celtic went to Pittodrie in the next round, the crowd was just 10,909. Another record low involving an Old Firm visit. And yet, it was the home support who were voting with their feet, not the away ones who had travelled 150 miles. The Celtic allocation of 3,300 was sold out and tickets were like gold-dust – in contrast, barely 7,000 Aberdeen fans bothered, many more settling down in front of the television instead.

Three decades ago, Celtic, or Rangers would have easily taken 20,000 fans to away grounds in Scotland every other Saturday. They would be ferried there on fleets of supporters’ buses. It was that sort of business on which football club treasurers relied upon. It was, to an extent, why the Premier League was created in 1975, with its emphasis on four home games with the Old Firm. Glasgow’s away-day culture was the lifeblood of other top-flight clubs, but now it is swiftly seeping away.

Once the Glasgow evening paper was filled with column inches of all the different branches of the Celtic and Rangers supporters groups, who advertised their bus departure times to away games. Now, it is minimal. A reflection of life in the 21st century, with slavish devotion to the car, or something deeper than that?

A Celtic spokesman confirmed that they have had a reduction in the number of supporters’ clubs who register with them. “The lack of ticket availability for branches for domestic games, and the fact that they are all-ticket, is the biggest problem reported to us,” the spokesman said. “We get less than 2,000 tickets for Falkirk and Tynecastle, and only 3,300 for Pittodrie. By the time those are dispersed, there is not enough for the traditional supporters’ clubs. It is not viable for them to run a bus to away games. Many fans say it is too expensive to go to so many away games. Fewer people, of the older generation, are able to run a bus now and most people would take a car. Once we had 50 buses going to a European tie in Germany. For the recent Champions League game in Barcelona, there was one bus – but more than 10,000 took the plane.”

The change in supporters’ lifestyle is also being noticed at smaller clubs, too. Ross Wayne has been involved in the Falkirk Supporters Club for over ten years. “There has definitely been a decline,” he said. “We have got six buses going to Tynecastle for the game with Hearts, which is not bad, but there used to be between ten and 15.

“The number of travelling fans is down and they are also going in different ways, rather than going on a bus. We are not alone. I have spoken to a Motherwell fan who says their association is now down to two buses. Is it any wonder that away crowds are now down? Admission fees play a part. Our bus has to make extra stops to pick up passengers just to keep the cost down. Ten years ago, we could fill two buses just from one Falkirk pub alone, but not now.”

I doubt whether Celtc or Rangers really give a hoot about the away crowds. They get there money from Setanta regardless and its the home club who are the ones who suffer financially out of this. Setanta are a bit like the SPL in the respect they care only for those two provincial glasgow clubs and not about anything or anybody else.

[alexi]

Why are the Celtc fans whinging?? they get a fortune from TV,around 20 mill i think. Without that cash they wouldnt have a team that would get them all these great European nights. And it wouldnt be any better for them in their promised land-the EPL.

TV is bad for our game-but then so is the high ticket prices,poor refereeing/policing/stewarding,lack of safe terracing for those that want it...i could go on. Fans in this country get treated with contempt by all those who make a living out of us.

[PILTONSTANY]

Celtic last played an away game on a Saturday at 3pm in 2005.I'd be pissed off wi that too as an away for me is a whole day out,how are you meant to plan for it in advance when your game can be either day with 2 different K.O times.....


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He went on to criticise the decision not to allow paying customers access to Almondvale on the day of the match.

He asked: "I don't know if I'm just a silly old sod but where is the common sense?

"If there is a pay-gate on the day, what are they expecting, the Khmer Rouge with Kalashnikovs or football supporters?

"If it was only another £10 or £50, that is very important for us."

A total farce of a decision,Bet there were Celtic fans and possibly other teams fans in central Scotland that would've went along to just help another team out a bit
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[PILTONSTANY]

Originally Posted by alexi
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TV is bad for our game-but then so is the high ticket prices,poor refereeing/policing/stewarding,lack of safe terracing for those that want it...i could go on. Fans in this country get treated with contempt by all those who make a living out of us.

It's time they realised that if we are paying good money to be treated like shite in a stadium, we may just go somewhere else.

There are already folk i know who have stopped going to away games due to pricing,i think it's only a matter of time until this becomes a big issue for the majority.

[Stanton Warrior]

Originally Posted by PILTONSTANY
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Celtic last played an away game on a Saturday at 3pm in 2005.I'd be pissed off wi that too as an away for me is a whole day out,how are you meant to plan for it in advance when your game can be either day with 2 different K.O times.....

:

That is a disgrace. Goes to show that the fans just dont matter, not to the league and not to the club.
Bearing in mind the clubs are the stake owners here if they suddenly turned round and said "Hold on a minute" then something could be done but until the clubs start to vaue their support as much as they value the cash then this is only gona get worse
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[Mixxxu]

Old-firm away fans are not the life-blood of teams.Surely a competitive league where these so-called lesser teams(hibs included) have something to play for each season is the real bread and butter of SPL sides.Playing teams 4(or even 3 times a season
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) is madness and an expanded league with the extra UEFA cup space granted to us along with the Scottish cup runner-up place going to the league would mean top 5 all chasing Europe.Combine that with 2 relegation spots and an end to the split and you'd have a league that resembles something bordering on normal.If the old-firm dont want to be here then they can fuck-off instead of harping on about the EPL who clearly have no need or desire for them.
For me the problem in Scottish football is that we are trying to create the Premiership with the budget and resources of the Ryman league.The attendances of most SPL/SFL teams fair well when compared to other European countries of similar demographic.
If the SPL remains as stagnent as currently I fear future generations will be happier watching the Premiership on TV.Its all very well getting revenue from Setanta but in the long-run I think its detrimental to our league.SPL branding to overseas viewers is laughable IMO.Most celtic fans in Ireland couldn't tell you who celtic were playing at the weekend.

3 pm saturday was and should always be kick-off time.

[SKII]

99% of OF fans believe the completely subsidise Scottish football and that the rest of us would not survive without them.

Most of them, of course, leave their homes in Kirkcaldy, Motherwell, Dunbar, Inverurie and Ayr to follow follow or hail their side. If the glory hunters/bigots/alternative appropriate description of these delocalised fans followed their local sides the OF would be no different to anyone else in terms of support or income and the game would be far more competitive for it.

Never going to happen though is it?

[wee 162]

I think we're at breaking point in Scottish football with the cost, and the first place where it's been felt is away supports, but home crowds are imo going on a downward trend as well...

When Hibs were through at Falkirk a month or so ago I can mind someone describing it as a good away support when there were about 1500 through. Fact is nowadays that is considered a decent support, but when we were in the 1st division only 10 years ago that would have been about our lowest away support of the season. At ER this season I reckon there has been a decrease in crowds and for the first time in a few years our average will be down a bit. It's been happening at Aberdeen for a good wee while now. Dundee Utd against Motherwell on Saturday was those sides biggest game in the league for a good wee while and there was only 6,000 at it. The shambles at Tynecastle and their fantasy crowd figures are looking more and more ridicilous when you see the pictures from their games with thousands of empty seats at so called sell outs. Same is the case at Parkhead.

All of that means that the article has a very valid point about what the problem is (although when the OF were regularly taking 20k to any away game was obviously before I was ever going). I'm not quite so sure he is absolutely right about the causes though. I personally reckon the pricing does have a lot to do with it, but so does the ST culture which has grown up. People buy a ST and that's their football for the year paid for to lots of them. As the prices continue to rise people are less likely to get along to a game casually. They get out of the habit, and stop going altogether. That used to be the same sort of folk who weren't too fussed about where the game was because the costs weren't that different home and away. You could jump on a supporters bus with a few mates for a couple of quid and get along. Now the supporters buses are almost purely populated by regulars who are needed to pay the high costs of hiring a bus...

It's hugely overpriced, it's not competitive, the football isn't great usually, and the fans are at best an afterthought. The SPL in other words is trying to emulate the Premiership but without the world class players to make it attractive. Recipe for disaster imo.

[blue toon hibby]

Originally Posted by SKII
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99% of OF fans believe the completely subsidise Scottish football and that the rest of us would not survive without them.

Most of them, of course, leave their homes in Kirkcaldy, Motherwell, Dunbar, Inverurie and Ayr to follow follow or hail their side. If the glory hunters/bigots/alternative appropriate description of these delocalised fans followed their local sides the OF would be no different to anyone else in terms of support or income and the game would be far more competitive for it.

Never going to happen though is it?

Not only the Bigot Brothers have delocalised fans though, SK - and the money these fans spend on a season's football is quite substantial, just in terms of getting to games. Try telling the Inverurie Loyal or whatever to go and watch Inverurie Locos on a Saturday instead?

[alexi]

Originally Posted by blue toon hibby
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Not only the Bigot Brothers have delocalised fans though, SK - and the money these fans spend on a season's football is quite substantial, just in terms of getting to games. Try telling the Inverurie Loyal or whatever to go and watch Inverurie Locos on a Saturday instead?

but how many Inverurie Loyal have actually been to see the Locos? As a young loon and couldnt afford to go see Hibs id go and watch Caledonian Fc & nowadays if ive a free non Hibs Saturday ill go and see Clach, most OF fans are armchair fans-they buy a replica top and cheer their team on from the comfort of a pub or house. They dont actually go to ANY game.

[blue toon hibby]

Originally Posted by alexi
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but how many Inverurie Loyal have actually been to see the Locos? As a young loon and couldnt afford to go see Hibs id go and watch Caledonian Fc & nowadays if ive a free non Hibs Saturday ill go and see Clach, most OF fans are armchair fans-they buy a replica top and cheer their team on from the comfort of a pub or house. They dont actually go to ANY game.

Agreed most of them are armchair fans but there are still a lot of OF buses on the road every weekend from Buckie, Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Aberdeen etc.
And many a Rantic "fan" complete with replica top (who has never been to Ibrox or Parkhead) can be seen at a Peterhead home game.

[alexi]

Originally Posted by blue toon hibby
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Agreed most of them are armchair fans but there are still a lot of OF buses on the road every weekend from Buckie, Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Aberdeen etc.
And many a Rantic "fan" complete with replica top (who has never been to Ibrox or Parkhead) can be seen at a Peterhead home game.

Thought the Blue Toon were trying to attract the Polish support these days.

Im my experience in Inverness,and i know alot of fans from alot of clubs, the ones who tend not to bother going to an actual game are the OF fans.But there are a few Hibbys in Inverness who also dont bother thier arse going to any Hibs game. All clubs have their armchair support-the of just have more (maybe because they have more fans)

[jakki]

I hanker for the normal Saturday football at 3 o'clock with fixtures home and away where you knew at the biginning of the session where and when the Hibs would be playing.That was in the old 1st Division.

Alright there would be a few cancellations due to weather but none of this pampering to the OF if they had a mid week European game.I cannot remember so many games cancelled because of unplayable pitches but I do remember standing in snow covered terracing with the pitch line not being white but clearances of snow. No undersoil heating then.

The fans are not a consideration nowadays. I know that I could make it to more games at ER if I knew 4 weeks in advance when the scheduled match would be played as I need this time to book for my transport through to ER but games are not scheduled for the fans benefit but for the TV and get changed with short notice.

Bring back Sarurday 3'oclck home and away, week in week out!After all without fans, there would be no football!

Rant over!

[Gunnerhibby]

I reckon the live telly issues and the SPL format(brought up in another thread) are fundamentally intrinsic to each other.

Clubs take care of themselves when voting on issues concerning their SPL status, or the effects thereof, and will totally ignore issues that could work for the greater good of the game.

Celtc fans protesting at live tv might be considered a joke by some, but when you look into it, the fact they havn't had an away SPL match at 3 bells on a saturday in nearly 3 years is feckin' scandalous. Their protest tho' is pointed at(some of) the wrong people and would have greater effect if they held one at their own ground on a home match. Maybe then the people who actually make the decisions concerning the SPL telly deal, ie, Celtc board members, would sit up and take notice.

Just to bring together the other issue, ie, SPL format, I am a firm believer that a 16-team SPL is the best way forward for Scottish football, and would create, not only, a far more competitive top league, but I also think this would filter down to the lower divisions.

More SPL teams are working towards debt reduction, Hertz being the exception
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and in a few years time(3-5 possibly) the biggest majority should be at very low debt levels. This then gives them more financial clout in signing, and keeping players longer. Obviously Hibs being a benchmark.

By working towards a 16-team SPL, and lower debts, this in turn would make for a far more competitive and entertaining SPL. I'm not saying that Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Untied, etc are gonny become championship contenders overnight, but it could see them get a lot closer to "them". With a shorter league season(all SPL games played on a saturday, no midweeks) there might just be a better chance of an upset, at least one of the CL places being taken outwith "them".

I don't go with what Craig Paterson says in SKll's post on the other thread re: Commercial managers nightmare. I think this "mare" would soon be displaced by the fact that, if Hibs(well he used us as an example) were up there challenging for 1st-2nd-3rd-4th(Uefa place guaranteed) then the shortfall from the lost Cat A games would easily be made up in raised attendances. Revenue streams from advertising, hospitality, etc could also be made up given that we'd be actually competing for something, thus making it a more entertaining spectacle, raising the whole profile, not only of Hibs, but the SPL in general. Companies who toss money into these pots would line up for a piece of that.

[hibs1986]

I agree with all of you - even those of you who are disagreeing with each other
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