Castro retires

[wee 162]

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stor...73c96.191.html

His country is a better place than when he took over. He stood up to the US for 49 years and remained uncowed and undefeated. Viva Fidel

[pennywellhibby]

Originally Posted by wee 162

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stor...73c96.191.html

His country is a better place than when he took over. He stood up to the US for 49 years and remained uncowed and undefeated. Viva Fidel

Ive got a funny feeling someone will dissagree with you

[Brainwrong]

It's funny, I had an argument with a guy I used to work with when he said that Mandela was a terrorist and should be treated as such. I see Castro in the same light, there was only one option to overthrow a corrupt government that didn't give a fuck for its people.

Hope Cuba doesn't end up with a US lapdog in charge.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by wee 162

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stor...73c96.191.html

His country is a better place than when he took over. He stood up to the US for 49 years and remained uncowed and undefeated. Viva Fidel

Matter of opinion. Bit of a mixed bag from what I can see. Still a lot of poverty but some good social infrastructure.

[Smurf]

Quite torn on all of this.. Having visited Cuba i know of the desparate poverty that exists in Cuba.

Is this because of the Soviet style economy or the USA trade embargo?

But then it's people are very well educated. Good health provision. Life expectancy the envy of all it's neighbours (Including part of the USA itself..)

Then again it's very much a police state.. I watched a tourist have his camcorder removed by the police.. There's much reports of human rights abuse... There's no free press or TV. Censorship is huge.

Overall it appears to me that to many on the extreme left all of that doesn't matter. He was a thorn - a real thorn at that - in the side of uncle Sam...

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Colr

Matter of opinion. Bit of a mixed bag from what I can see. Still a lot of poverty but some good social infrastructure.

A lot of poverty, but very little absolute poverty where people go hungry or do not have a roof over their heads. Universal access to a very good healthcare system, and the chance for anyone bright enough to advance as far academically as they can. That's more than decent imo.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf

Quite torn on all of this.. Having visited Cuba i know of the desparate poverty that exists in Cuba.

Is this because of the Soviet style economy or the USA trade embargo?

But then it's people are very well educated. Good health provision. Life expectancy the envy of all it's neighbours (Including part of the USA itself..)

Then again it's very much a police state.. I watched a tourist have his camcorder removed by the police.. There's much reports of human rights abuse... There's no free press or TV. Censorship is huge.

Overall it appears to me that to many on the extreme left all of that doesn't matter. He was a thorn - a real thorn at that - in the side of uncle Sam...

Does it matter to me? Yes, it does. However, you have to put into perspective the two different strands you are talking about, which is the bit which is ignored when people (particularly in the mainstream media) talk about the various bad things which the Cuban government does. On the censorship issue for example the US has been bombarding Cuba for years with propoganda to try and de-stabilise it's government. Is it any wonder that a government having to deal with that will try to limit the freedom of the press? On the human rights abuses, yes there is, but the worst human rights abuses currently taking place in Cuba are in Guanatanamo Bay but the US is not described in terms of being a serial ignorer of human rights, and in fact people who do so are labelled anti-US so their opinion is ignored.

I have problems with Cubas government, and there are many things which I wish did not happen. But it's in a far better state than it's peers which exist as US dominated statelets. Cubas people may have limited freedom, but they also do not have their country owned by United Fruit and the Mafia any more as they did before Castro took control.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by wee 162

A lot of poverty, but very little absolute poverty where people go hungry or do not have a roof over their heads. Universal access to a very good healthcare system, and the chance for anyone bright enough to advance as far academically as they can. That's more than decent imo.

It compares well with Jamaica and similar countries in the area. It could be agrued that the poverty is not helped by US trade embargoes.

[Stirlinghibee]

Fidel has given his people dignity. Can you imagine what Cuba would be like if it was still owned by the Gambino's , Lucheses, Bonano's etc. Think of one great big Las Vegas, without ANY rules.

Might be fun for the Gringo's but for the Cubans???

[Hibbie0762]

Originally Posted by Colr

It compares well with Jamaica and similar countries in the area.

It also compares well with the pre-Castro Cuba, when the Batista regime was effectively a US puppet and the island itself a cheap and easily reached playground for US politicians, businessmen and mobsters. I see Dubya is now threatening to help the post-Castro Cuba towards the "blessing" of US style democracy. Not being a student of history (or indeed a student of anything much), Dubya will be missing the irony of the fact that it was the blessing of US style democracy which fuelled the 1956 revolution in the first place.

Cuba is currently no paradise, but there is much which is good in their social infrastructure. In any case the achievements of the revolution have to be seen in the context of 50 years of unremitting US hostility, aggression and embargo.

The other irony is that it is US hostility which has largely kept the Cuban revolution alive anyway. An invasion of US dollars, video recorders and white goods could have achieved decades ago what the Bay of Pigs invasion was never going to achieve. The soft underbelly of any revolution is that the average Joes and Janes in the street are unwilling to commit for any length of time to the kind of privation needed to sustain an ideal.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Hibbie0762

It also compares well with the pre-Castro Cuba, when the Batista regime was effectively a US puppet and the island itself a cheap and easily reached playground for US politicians, businessmen and mobsters. I see Dubya is now threatening to help the post-Castro Cuba towards the "blessing" of US style democracy. Not being a student of history (or indeed a student of anything much), Dubya will be missing the irony of the fact that it was the blessing of US style democracy which fuelled the 1959 revolution in the first place.

Cuba is currently no paradise, but there is much which is good in their social infrastructure. In any case the achievements of the revolution have to be seen in the context of nearly 50 years of unremitting US hostility, aggression and embargo.

The other irony is that it is US hostility which has largely kept the Cuban revolution alive anyway. An invasion of US dollars, video recorders and white goods could have achieved decades ago what the Bay of Pigs invasion was never going to achieve. The soft underbelly of any revolution is that the average Joes and Janes in the street are unwilling to commit for any length of time to the kind of privation needed to sustain an ideal.

I would,likemto see them open up a bit and get some benfit from US trade without being consumed by the US empire.

[Hibbie0762]

Here's one for all the old lefties out there:

BIG CIGARS (Ewan McColl)

There's a little sun-drenched island in the Caribbean sea
It used to be like paradise, all fun and gaiety
You could take a plane from Florida, just ninety miles away
And live there like an emperor for fifty bucks a day
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

The Government took orders from the local CIA
And always served the interests of the good old USA
The natives they all knew their place, and did what they were told
Hotels were air-conditioned and the beer was always cold
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

One day in nineteen fifty-six, the year was almost run
Ten thousand US citizens lay browning in the sun
When a certain hairy Cuban, regardless of the risk
Lit a big cigar and burnt those US arses to a crisp
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

Well, the gangsters and the bankers, all the con-men and the crimps
The corporation lawyers, all the bully-boys and pimps
Shouting "Freedom" and "Democracy" and other thrilling cries
Flew back to God's own country like ten thousand blue-arsed flies
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

One by one Batista's outposts were attacked and overrun
By a band of companeros led by him they call the Man
He lit a big Havana as they rested at the halt
Then through Oriente province went, just like a dose of salts
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

Fidel puffed a king-sized Huppman and Las Villas province fell
He lit a Monte Cristo and Batista ran like hell
Then he lit a Simon Bolivar and overran the south
And big daddy in the White House started foaming at the mouth
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

When he lights a La Ranagos, Guatemalan workers rise
When he puffs a Castenado, Venezuelans organise
And Colombian guerrillas in their jungle bivouacs
Use the glow of his Corona as the signal to attack
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

Now that little sun-drenched island's full of folks who smoke cigars
You can smell the fine aroma in Peru and Panama
And when miners in Bolivia rise up to claim their rights
You can bet your life that Fidel's big Havana's burning bright
Happy days, at an end
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend

[Hibbie0762]

Originally Posted by Colr

I would,likemto see them open up a bit and get some benfit from US trade without being consumed by the US empire.

Aye, they've got a good reputation for that sort of approach to foreign policy, our Transatlantic cousins - unconditional trade with and support for smaller countries who might have their own ideas as to what constitutes freedom and democracy.

The US contribution to freedom in places like Nicaragua, Grenada and Panama is well documented. And of course the poor downtrodden Iraqis are now feeling the benefits of having been "freed" by the US.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Hibbie0762

Aye, they've got a good reputation for that sort of approach to foreign policy, our Transatlantic cousins - unconditional trade with and support for smaller countries who might have their own ideas as to what constitutes freedom and democracy.

The US contribution to freedom in places like Nicaragua, Grenada and Panama is well documented. And of course the poor downtrodden Iraqis are now feeling the benefits of having been "freed" by the US.

I hesitated to add "Fat chance" to my post.

[Louis Prima]

It always appeared to me,in my own simplistic way, that Fidel was the glue that held the whole thing together. If with him passing on the baton, so to speak is he putting in the structure to avoid a power vacuum knowing that his demise will be sooner rather than later. Cuba being in a prime position to present a threat to the states would obviously be a real asset to any other regime not inclined to follow the USA's party line. Primarily thinking Russia here because of the Soviet Unions previous support. Or did this decline along with the Soviets?

[dangerousdavid]

"It is said that Mr Castro has been the target of many CIA-sponsored assassination plots as a result of such policies - in 1999 a Cuban interior ministry official put the figure at 637. "

CIA - what a useless shower ay koonts!

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Louis Prima

It always appeared to me,in my own simplistic way, that Fidel was the glue that held the whole thing together. If with him passing on the baton, so to speak is he putting in the structure to avoid a power vacuum knowing that his demise will be sooner rather than later. Cuba being in a prime position to present a threat to the states would obviously be a real asset to any other regime not inclined to follow the USA's party line. Primarily thinking Russia here because of the Soviet Unions previous support. Or did this decline along with the Soviets?

are there any real internal divisions in the coutry, though? castro is no tito.

[SteveIrwin]

Originally Posted by pennywellhibby

Ive got a funny feeling someone will dissagree with you

i agree with Castro and all he stood for

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by SteveIrwin

i agree with Castro and all he stood for

Brave statement...