Castro retires

[egb_hibs]

Al the cia's site (clearly agit prop i imagine) puts chile at 95.7 literacy v cuba's 99 plus. so, well done fidel, but they're certainly in the same ballpark. clearly we're some years after's gussie's innings as well, but i'll look into it tomorrow, cheers

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by lobster
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First class post. Spot on.
The bit in bold above sums it up. Therein lies the key 'moral difference' to quote the right wing apologists between Castro and Pinochet. Well said mate.

why is that a more 'key moral difference' than the fact that pinochet transitioned to democracy when fidel didn't? personally i'd put there oppressive wicked antics to the fore in both cases anyway. and once more, i'm not questioning why you find one less bad than the other, but why one is evil incarnate, the other to be celebrated. overthrowing a despot only to implement 50 years of despotery seems a thin basis for being put on a pedestal.

anyway lobster, as to Al, forget pinochet for a minute -

who is more morally reprehensible, margaret thatcher or fidel castro?

shove the right wing apologists up your trotsky btw
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- i have never encountered a single post on this forum in the 5 years i've viewed it, where anyone has defended a right wing despot. sadly, apologism for left wing bams is, meanwhile, frequent.

as in the world at large, there is no moral equivalence. it is overwhelmingly a left wing practice to do this. most of us centrists, and indeed most right wingers - bar the bnp sort who are in any case as much of the left as the right - condemn dictators of any kind.

[lobster]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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why is that a more 'key moral difference' than the fact that pinochet transitioned to democracy when fidel didn't? personally i'd put there oppressive wicked antics to the fore in both cases anyway. and once more, i'm not questioning why you find one less bad than the other, but why one is evil incarnate, the other to be celebrated. overthrowing a despot only to implement 50 years of despotery seems a thin basis for being put on a pedestal.

anyway lobster, as to Al, forget pinochet for a minute -

who is more morally reprehensible, margaret thatcher or fidel castro?

shove the right wing apologists up your trotsky btw
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- i have never encountered a single post on this forum in the 5 years i've viewed it, where anyone has defended a right wing despot. sadly, apologism for left wing bams is, meanwhile, frequent.

as in the world at large, there is no moral equivalence. it is overwhelmingly a left wing practice to do this. most of us centrists, and indeed most right wingers - bar the bnp sort who are in any case as much of the left as the right - condemn dictators of any kind.

Your whole point seems to be predicated on a belief in western democracy. I personally do not accept western democracy in its current form (apart from cringing under its heel of course). It is an illusion or at very best, in the case of the USA, completely dysfunctional. As eloquently put by wee 162 previously, when did you last vote for the UK head of state? You are aware that in the UK we have an UNELECTED second chamber of parliament? Of course you are. Simple. NOT DEMOCRACY. On another level I do not accept the assumed legitimacy or tyranny of the majority anyway. There is no moral or ethical case that can be made to say that just because a majority want something the minority should comply. This is a tactic used throughout history by the Fascists very successfully. Its time to fight fire with fire. In my view libertarian socialism has never been given the chance to work so its impossible for us to gauge how it might work. It is and has always been under the sustained attack of the western nations both overty and covertly. Venezuela at the moment is a clear case in point.
As far as i am concerned putting Pinciohet in the same bracket as Castro is tantamount to apologising for right wing animals. You clearly disagree. By consorting with Pinochet I think you are well aware of my view of Thatcher in comparison to Castro. (Cant wait for the upcoming 'Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead' party can you?)
Its seems we are fated to disagree no point going round in circles is there?



(Dont shove things up ma trotsky - its unhealthy)

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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why is that a more 'key moral difference' than the fact that pinochet transitioned to democracy when fidel didn't?

It's easy to transition to democracy when you have left an army in place who will immediately overthrow any government you would disagree with, and you have written into the constitution that you can never be prosecuted for the crimes against humanity you commited.

That's your idea of democracy?

[Smurf]

Have you been to Cuba lobster?

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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shove the right wing apologists up your trotsky btw
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- i have never encountered a single post on this forum in the 5 years i've viewed it, where anyone has defended a right wing despot. sadly, apologism for left wing bams is, meanwhile, frequent.

if you replace defend with excuse then there have been plenty, you're realpolitik during the cold war in particular is a lucid example.

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Have you been to Cuba lobster? .

Not sure whay thats relevant. If you're saying nobody who hasn't been is entitled to an opinion then thats ludicrous. If you're saying the reality isn't a haven filled with milk and honey then its poorly aimed, nobody has said it is.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Gareth
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Not sure whay thats relevant. If you're saying nobody who hasn't been is entitled to an opinion then thats ludicrous. If you're saying the reality isn't a haven filled with milk and honey then its poorly aimed, nobody has said it is.

Of course everyones entitled to an opinion regardless to whether you've been to Cuba or not.

However, trust me when you arrive armed with dollars and realise that where you go to spend them isn't open or available to the average Cuban it tells you everything you need to know.

It's left wing romanticism pish IMO.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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However, trust me when you arrive armed with dollars and realise that where you go to spend them isn't open or available to the average Cuban it tells you everything you need to know.

It's left wing romanticism pish IMO.

It's not available to the average Cuban so that doctors and teachers don't become fucking waiters to earn dollars rather than pesos.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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It's not available to the average Cuban so that doctors and teachers don't become fucking waiters to earn dollars rather than pesos.

But then the tourist is literally beseiged by young children standing with flowers and old men and women smoking cigars pushing themselves forward looking to be photographed all saying "Dollar! Dollar!". (It's actually quite upsetting stuff..)

What exactly does the Dollar buy them that the Peso doesn't?

And does that not tell us it's a completely failed economy and system?

[lobster]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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But then the tourist is literally beseiged by young children standing with flowers and old men and women smoking cigars pushing themselves forward looking to be photographed all saying "Dollar! Dollar!". (It's actually quite upsetting stuff..)

What exactly does the Dollar buy them that the Peso doesn't?

And does that not tell us it's a completely failed economy and system?

It tells us that the illegal and barbaric blockade of Cuba instigated and supported by the US government alone (apart from Israel and the Marshall Islands!) and opposed by every single other country in the world is a crime against humanity.[/b] Note, not the US people but the fanatical US government.
Going as a tourist is naturally a skewed way of experiencing Cuba -its not our playground although paradoxically I support it if it transfers money to the people directly or indirectly. (Thought they'd abandoned the dollar in favour of the convertible peso?)
Whatever, the privations experienced by the Cuba people are obviously deeply troubling but would be alleviated significantly by the lifting of the illegal blockade.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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But then the tourist is literally beseiged by young children standing with flowers and old men and women smoking cigars pushing themselves forward looking to be photographed all saying "Dollar! Dollar!". (It's actually quite upsetting stuff..)

What exactly does the Dollar buy them that the Peso doesn't?

And does that not tell us it's a completely failed economy and system?

The dollar shops are exactly the same as they are elsewhere in the world where you can buy imported stuff which is not available using the local currency. Which builds up the value of the dollar against the peso locally so that you can get a much higher rate of exchange for a dollar than the official exchange rate.

And the reason for the dollar shops is because rich western tourists will not come to a country where they cannot get the stuff they expect. And since tourism has become one of the main sources of foreign currency since the collapse of the market prices for the stuff that Cuba produces (ie sugar) they have to make that sacrifice. It's a parallel economy in effect. And the reason why the Cuban government took that decision was for the precise reason I mentioned. They did not want tourism to completely fuck their national infrastructure. That is also the reason why any foreign company that employs staff in Cuba has to pay the government their salary in foreign currency which is then paid to the staff in pesos (at the official exchange rate). In other words they're trying to protect the people who do the most important jobs in the country from suffering economic hardship compared to those working for the pleasure of folk like you or me. That isn't what a free market system would say is right, but it's something I agree with.

Cuba is not rich by any means, but economically its GDP is well comparable to any of the Carribean islands.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by lobster
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Your whole point seems to be predicated on a belief in western democracy. I personally do not accept western democracy in its current form (apart from cringing under its heel of course). It is an illusion or at very best, in the case of the USA, completely dysfunctional. As eloquently put by wee 162 previously, when did you last vote for the UK head of state? You are aware that in the UK we have an UNELECTED second chamber of parliament? Of course you are. Simple. NOT DEMOCRACY. On another level I do not accept the assumed legitimacy or tyranny of the majority anyway. There is no moral or ethical case that can be made to say that just because a majority want something the minority should comply. This is a tactic used throughout history by the Fascists very successfully. Its time to fight fire with fire. In my view libertarian socialism has never been given the chance to work so its impossible for us to gauge how it might work. It is and has always been under the sustained attack of the western nations both overty and covertly. Venezuela at the moment is a clear case in point.
As far as i am concerned putting Pinciohet in the same bracket as Castro is tantamount to apologising for right wing animals. You clearly disagree. By consorting with Pinochet I think you are well aware of my view of Thatcher in comparison to Castro. (Cant wait for the upcoming 'Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead' party can you?)
Its seems we are fated to disagree no point going round in circles is there?



(Dont shove things up ma trotsky - its unhealthy)

if democracy does not rate highly with you, then why is it a decisive factor in making pinochet worse than castro?

you complain about comparing pinochet to castro and assert it's apologising for right wing animals. it's the opposite - it's putting castro's regime into the same despicable bracket, and condemning both.

i agree we're going around in circles; and until you can explain the moral basis for finding thatcher never mind pinochet worse than castro, i can only conclude - adding this to what you say here - that we are talking from completely different moral universes.

if good for you is authoritarian dictatorship, oppression, control of the populace, brutal put downs of any dissent and so on, as long as it claims to be of the left, then i can clearly see why castro is better than thatcher , but the only distinction i can see over pinochet is the 'left' label.

fair enough - we disagree; i am a liberal, you are a fascist. fair enough; my kind of society can accomodate your views, if not the other way around.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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It's easy to transition to democracy when you have left an army in place who will immediately overthrow any government you would disagree with, and you have written into the constitution that you can never be prosecuted for the crimes against humanity you commited.

That's your idea of democracy?

Allan, there have been left of centre regimes in chile since, no?

in any case, i'd really like you to stop hiding behind these tangential points and get to the meat and bones. why not explain why castro's commonalities with pinochet do not preclude you from celebrating him. why not answer the question about him and thatch? are you ashamed to do so?

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Gareth
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if you replace defend with excuse then there have been plenty, you're realpolitik during the cold war in particular is a lucid example.
.

gareth, there's a world of difference between taking a view on relative evils versus the over celebration of castro. there are no avatars or sigs on here ever ever celebrating kissinger, nixon, james angleton or allan dulles, or even reagan, bush or thatcher.

there is no equivalence elsewhere to the championing of dictatorship by left wing posters. and this is a mirror of larger society.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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Cuba is not rich by any means, but economically its GDP is well comparable to any of the Carribean islands.

really - why not compare, say, [Only Registered Users Can See Links. Click Here To Register] with [Only Registered Users Can See Links. Click Here To Register]

i don't want you hiding from the point by getting all stato on me, so while barbados is not quite treble the cuban gdp, it is approximately treble.

i would check more examples but i can't figure out how to search for other nations 'fact sheets' on that site. these two i got directly linked from a guardian [Only Registered Users Can See Links. Click Here To Register]
which is a healthy reminder that not all on the left will subordinate themselves to any latin dictator in fatigues and big boots

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Gareth
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If you're saying nobody who hasn't been is entitled to an opinion then thats ludicrous.

i have to support gareth here smurf; as you should know by now, this logic is only socially acceptable when applied to abortion.

so let the man speak, this isn't, after all, cuba.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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It's not available to the average Cuban so that doctors and teachers don't become fucking waiters to earn dollars rather than pesos.

except doctors and teachers do become waiters. and prostitutes.

[lobster]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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if democracy does not rate highly with you, then why is it a decisive factor in making pinochet worse than castro?

you complain about comparing pinochet to castro and assert it's apologising for right wing animals. it's the opposite - it's putting castro's regime into the same despicable bracket, and condemning both.

i agree we're going around in circles; and until you can explain the moral basis for finding thatcher never mind pinochet worse than castro, i can only conclude - adding this to what you say here - that we are talking from completely different moral universes.

if good for you is authoritarian dictatorship, oppression, control of the populace, brutal put downs of any dissent and so on, as long as it claims to be of the left, then i can clearly see why castro is better than thatcher , but the only distinction i can see over pinochet is the 'left' label.

fair enough - we disagr