teaching patriotism in schools

[egb_hibs]

i realise that a lot of people feel that education should be one size and shape determined by the state, and so will have no quibble with whatever ideological content the state chooses to introduce into schools.

but for the skeptics amongst us - what do we think of of the idea of 'teaching patriotism' in schools as described in this article ?

personally i'm against the state dictating ideological content full stop - unless it is advertised and alternatives are provided.

but i don't see why teaching kids patriotism is any more unreasonable than teaching the merits of 'diversity' or whatever. the predictable response of lefty teachers is amusing.

thoughts?

[Smurf]

I find it absolutely disgusting.

"Why?" is what i would like to know...

Of course those in favour will say "Why not?" but i feel very uneasy with all this nationalism crap. Feck borders. Let people just be people.

I feel the same as i do if i'm ever unfortunate enough to witness the end of the Tory party conference.

[Hampden_Hibby]

You're right, teaching patriotism isn't any different from teaching other concepts which are allegedly "all good".

Rather than instilling an unquestioning love of their country, I'd be happier with teachers instilling in the kids, a love and desire of knowledge (for good and bad) about their country. Then the weans will be properly equipped to decide if they actually do love their country and by how much.

Unsurprisingly I believe that should be applied to certain other aspects of school curricula.

[hibs1986]

You've only gone and got me started!!!!

I may be misunderstanding this (so do forgive me if I've picked up the wrong end of the stick) but from what I've heard and read, there is suggestion that patriotism should be part of the history curriculuum.

1) If I was a history teacher (even a Union Flag waving, warm beer drinking, English cricket supporting, patriotic one) I would be outraged. History is surely about the collection and evaluation of sources of evidence, and analysis of these sources in an attempt to make objective sense of events. I can't see any way that 'patriotism' can be inserted in that, without undermining the whole premise of the subject.

2) Teaching 'patriotism' is surely about effectual / sensible as teaching love. If the government feel there's an issue to do with multi-culturism and lack of shared values, then there's debate to be had about the role of schools in re-inforcing cultural values, and emphasising the importance of being a useful citizen. Whether or not people feel patriotic is, IMO, none of the governments business, so long as people are behaving themselves.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I find it absolutely disgusting.

"Why?" is what i would like to know...

Of course those in favour will say "Why not?" but i feel very uneasy with all this nationalism crap. Feck borders. Let people just be people.

I feel the same as i do if i'm ever unfortunate enough to witness the end of the Tory party conference.

well well well smurf. you are one of the advocates of statist schooling i had in mind. not so happy now?

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby

You're right, teaching patriotism isn't any different from teaching other concepts which are allegedly "all good".

Rather than instilling an unquestioning love of their country, I'd be happier with teachers instilling in the kids, a love and desire of knowledge (for good and bad) about their country. Then the wgiveans will be properly equipped to decide if they actually do love their country and by how much.

Unsurprisingly I believe that should be applied to certain other aspects of school curricula.

i partially agree. on the other hand it's impossible to have values free school - after all, would you advocate a similarly neutral approach to issues of race for example?

given the impossibility i think the most equitable solution is to have diversity of schools, with advertised philosophical positions.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by hibs1986

You've only gone and got me started!!!!

I may be misunderstanding this (so do forgive me if I've picked up the wrong end of the stick) but from what I've heard and read, there is suggestion that patriotism should be part of the history curriculuum.

1) If I was a history teacher (even a Union Flag waving, warm beer drinking, English cricket supporting, patriotic one) I would be outraged. History is surely about the collection and evaluation of sources of evidence, and analysis of these sources in an attempt to make objective sense of events. I can't see any way that 'patriotism' can be inserted in that, without undermining the whole premise of the subject.

2) Teaching 'patriotism' is surely about effectual / sensible as teaching love. If the government feel there's an issue to do with multi-culturism and lack of shared values, then there's debate to be had about the role of schools in re-inforcing cultural values, and emphasising the importance of being a useful citizen. Whether or not people feel patriotic is, IMO, none of the governments business, so long as people are behaving themselves.

is reinforcing cultural values seperable from patriotism? i'm not convinced.

i certainly feel that there should be a move away from the self-loathing approach to our own history that in the typically fuckwitted intellectually challenged way of the 'class of 68' has contributed to social division.

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

i partially agree. on the other hand it's impossible to have values free school - after all, would you advocate a similarly neutral approach to issues of race for example?

given the impossibility i think the most equitable solution is to have diversity of schools, with advertised philosophical positions.

I wouldn't advocate a similar neutral approach to racism and certain other aspects of life but then that's because I view them as fundamentally important for a kid to be educated in those particular concepts but not in others that I believe to be hogwash.

I wonder if say a devoutly religious man who advocates diversity of schools would extend his diversity range to pagan schools?

I'd guess no which makes the differences between us all just a question of degree.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby

I wouldn't advocate a similar neutral approach to racism and certain other aspects of life but then that's because I view them as fundamentally important for a kid to be educated in those particular concepts but not in others that I believe to be hogwash.

yes you view them that way. as others do patriotism. this is the problem with the state setting the agenda and giving you no choice.

I wonder if say a devoutly religious man who advocates diversity of schools would extend his diversity range to pagan schools?

some probably would others probably wouldn't

I'd guess no which makes the differences between us all just a question of degree.

possibly.

i think the best solution would be to minimise the role of the state. if the state is asked to be the provider of education we can hardly blame it for promoting patriotism, given that the state depends on it.

[hibs1986]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

is reinforcing cultural values seperable from patriotism? i'm not convinced.

i certainly feel that there should be a move away from the self-loathing approach to our own history that in the typically fuckwitted intellectually challenged way of the 'class of 68' has contributed to social division.

Arguably, yes. One is content based, and factual - "this is what we do". The other is an emotional concept. Anyways, I'm not saying that I believe schools should be teaching this stuff anyway, just that anxiety about it appears to be the root of this 'initiative', and perhaps it warrants public debate. History is surely not the place for it though - do they not already have 'citizenship' teaching in England? There's also Personal and Social Education, and Religious and Moral Education.

In answer to your second point, I would agree. I feel the same about a self-loathing approach to the study of history as I do to a self-agrandizing / jingoistic approach.

[Colr]

I'd prefer schools to teach kids how to think not what to think. Typical Brownism.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Colr

I'd prefer schools to teach kids how to think not what to think. Typical Brownism.

i agree. it's all very socialist in fact.

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by Colr

I'd prefer schools to teach kids how to think not what to think. Typical Brownism.

Spot on Col - that's what I'm trying to say. And that encapsulates my problem with how certain subjects are taught.

[Bartok]

Originally Posted by Colr

I'd prefer schools to teach kids how to think not what to think. Typical Brownism.

Indeed.

[hibs1986]

Originally Posted by Colr

I'd prefer schools to teach kids how to think not what to think. Typical Brownism.

Me Too.

[Green Sleeves]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

is reinforcing cultural values seperable from patriotism? i'm not convinced.

i certainly feel that there should be a move away from the self-loathing approach to our own history that in the typically fuckwitted intellectually challenged way of the 'class of 68' has contributed to social division.

When you describe liberals, lefties, secularists as "self-loathing", are you implying that conservative thinkers are self-loving?

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Green Sleeves

When you describe liberals, lefties, secularists as "self-loathing", are you implying that conservative thinkers are self-loving?

what are 'secularists'?

i do hope btw that you aren't inferring that people outside the liberal-left are automatically conservatives? this is the kind of wonky manichiean thinking that is sadly evidences in that article of the arts i quoted in another thread.

[wee 162]

How do you "teach" patriotism? Tell kids that their country is the best in the world? Lie about aspects of history to omit pertinent facts which paint said country in a bad light?

Teach them to read, teach them to write, teach them how to do sums, and then for the remaining 8 or 9 years of schooling teach them how to judge and weigh evidence. Everything else is cosmetic.

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by wee 162

Teach them to read, teach them to write, teach them how to do sums, and then for the remaining 8 or 9 years of schooling teach them how to judge and weigh evidence. Everything else is cosmetic.

Can't have that! Heaven forbid ('scuse the pun) they may weigh up the evidence and reject any hypothesis on the basis that it's a crock of shite! Safer sticking to our nice healthy diversity model where a range of 'facts' are rammed....I mean offered to the kids as 'facts'.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by wee 162

How do you "teach" patriotism? Tell kids that their country is the best in the world? Lie about aspects of history to omit pertinent facts which paint said country in a bad light?

i think there's a sensible way to do it. cover the good and bad in the countries past, but emphasis that importance of the good bits - the liberal traditions etc, which are also the bits we may need to fight for one day, and at a minimum are what we should be seeking to preserve

Teach them to read, teach them to write, teach them how to do sums, and then for the remaining 8 or 9 years of schooling teach them how to judge and weigh evidence. Everything else is cosmetic.

i would like to agree but it's impossible. you can't have a school with a morally neutral position, because there's no such thing for starters.

that said i think i'm less jaundiced than you even though paradoxically you rather than me would presumably argue that the state should be the provider of a single uniform education system.

i think the state system supplies just about enough empiricism for the independent minded to learn tools that will assist them. the majority will of course unthinkingly ingest the what is suffused in the system due to the left wing dominance in all tiers of education. this is evident in how many people come out of our schools and uni's with half baked and uniform world views. but then the majority of folks are always going to be like that.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby

Can't have that! Heaven forbid ('scuse the pun) they may weigh up the evidence and reject any hypothesis on the basis that it's a crock of shite! Safer sticking to our nice healthy diversity model where a range of 'facts' are rammed....I mean offered to the kids as 'facts'.

you seem to have little faith in people H. i think those with an independent spirit will question whatever they learn. most people will never question anything, but that will never change.