The weirdest thing ever - HibeesBounce.com

**wee 162** · 10-01-08, 12:00

I agree to an extent with the tories
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on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

**Sean** · 10-01-08, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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I agree to an extent with the tories
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

can't disagree.

however, the "work" should be full time, but "full time" should include courses, training etc, and time to look for work and attend interviews.

I also think 2 years is far too long to wait. Perhaps 6 or 12 months should be the kick in time.

remember though mate. just because it came from the gob of a tory disnae make it a tory idea
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so don't be too harsh on yourself for agreeing with the principle

Smurf · 10-01-08, 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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I agree to an extent with the tories
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

You're on the slippery slope dude...
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HenryLB · 10-01-08, 12:53

It's age catching up with you. Weirdly I'm travelling leftwards as I get older. At some point we might meet in the middle. If we both live to 2150
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What do people think of the Incapacity Benefit proposals?

Smurf · 10-01-08, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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What do people think of the Incapacity Benefit proposals?

I think it's ridiculous that they think 200,000 are at it - It's much more than that.

Colr · 10-01-08, 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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I agree to an extent with the tories
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

Being long term unemployed is also dispiriting and de-motivating in itself. You lose structure to myour life and gradually the ability to motivate yourself or even organise your tasks well. Its the basis of occuaptional therapy for mentally ill folk, after all.

It could help break the cycle by giving people some self worth as well as experience.

HenryLB · 10-01-08, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smurf
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I think it's ridiculous that they think 200,000 are at it - It's much more than that.

I had a "discussion" with some trots on a far-left website about this. I say discussion, but when I asked how many people were on the fiddle there was a deafening silence and one poster laughed at me for "having learning difficulties". Which I found ironic.

But I'm genuinely interested in the numbers of false claimants, because I have no idea. It's a really hard figure to assess. I personally know about six people who've been on it and only one was a genuine claimant. The rest are criminals - not just because they fraudulently claim, but in their other "jobs". But then I'm unlikely to meet genuinely disabled people so that proportion can hardly be in any way representative.

The issue that troubles me most is that IB claimants are concentrated in poor areas, often formerly industrial ones. It's obviously a method of hiding long-term unemployed, but on a more sinister level it's also likely to keep those people out of the job market for good: they have no impetus to retrain, and investment into their locality is surely going to be constrained by employers looking at the area and thinking it's full of individuals who are unable to work. Effectively the region remains ghettoised.

**gun ainm** · 10-01-08, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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I agree to an extent with the tories
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

I agree with the central premise too and said as much a few months ago in another post, I'm encouraged the tories are looking at it but a wee bit suprised as I'd imagine it would be more expensive to run that the benefit system is currently (if done meaningfully) - does anyone know if its been costed by Cameron or is it just something else thats sounds quite nice?

HenryLB · 10-01-08, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by theselkie
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I agree with the central premise too and said as much a few months ago in another post, I'm encouraged the tories are looking at it but a wee bit suprised as I'd imagine it would be more expensive to run that the benefit system is currently (if done meaningfully) - does anyone know if its been costed by Cameron or is it just something else thats sounds quite nice?

Likely to be the latter unfortunately. Politics nowadays (cue rant) seems to be so much about PR that they float this kind of decent-sounding measure all the time, but when you actually look at the small print it turns out to be not quite what it says on the tin.

**Paulie Walnuts** · 10-01-08, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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I agree to an extent with the tories
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

They you get more right wing as you get older. I didn't know they actually meant YOU
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**HailHail** · 10-01-08, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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I agree to an extent with the tories
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

Fascist!
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**wee 162** · 10-01-08, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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Likely to be the latter unfortunately. Politics nowadays (cue rant) seems to be so much about PR that they float this kind of decent-sounding measure all the time, but when you actually look at the small print it turns out to be not quite what it says on the tin.

That's only true if it isn't a tin of rhetoric
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HenryLB · 10-01-08, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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That's only true if it isn't a tin of rhetoric
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I'd quite like a tin of rhetoric. You buy it in Sainsbury's, take it home, whip it open and it rants at you. Ian Paisley flavour would liven up an evening in.

Colr · 10-01-08, 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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I'd quite like a tin of rhetoric. You buy it in Sainsbury's, take it home, whip it open and it rants at you. Ian Paisley flavour would liven up an evening in.

You have to make rhetoric yourself.

**egb_hibs** · 10-01-08, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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I agree to an extent with the tories
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all.

What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into.

good stuff Al. i feared you might disagree with this, and i'm glad you don't.

i wouldn't give them minimum wage though - if you do that you're still disincentivising work. if i'm prepared to live on 60 quid so i can idle, then i'll be prepared to work 10 hours for it rather than a 40 hour week, so i can be idle. clearly not all are idlers, but theyre surely the biggest problem to address.

i'd have mandatory 35 hour week comprised of 3 days community svc work, and two days of training plus assisted job seeking.

modernised 'poor houses' i wouldn't dismiss either. communal facilities for young single parents with onsite creche facilities and a split of work and education might have it's merits versus pregnancy being a ticket to a council flat for some and a vicious circle of dependency for many.

hibs1986 · 10-01-08, 21:41

Does anyone remember the Manpower Services Commission? Did they not do something similar - community based work that involved training (and qualification, maybe?). I remember it being abolished, but not much else.

HenryLB · 10-01-08, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibs1986
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Does anyone remember the Manpower Services Commission? Did they not do something similar - community based work that involved training (and qualification, maybe?). I remember it being abolished, but not much else.

I remember it. Was it maybe privatised? Or maybe it was private in the first place. There was a branch next to the recruitment office that employed me some years ago. Quite a few of my fellow minimum waged (mainly) catering-employed colleagues rather looked down their nose at it, which I found quite amusing, given that our jobs were amongst the worst in the known universe.

**madkink** · 10-01-08, 22:03

The one thing that keeps most people on any benefit, is the fact that they (mostly) are unskilled or skilled in an area no longer required,

So gives not many options, ie van driver, labourer (not demeaning (sp?) these jobs)

But you then have to look at the fact that these are min wage, soon as you start your job you have to pay rent, council tax so from your first wage, you are skinted, i think that that an "ease in to work" where you are given help with these things, mayby you only pay 1/2 rent and council tax for the first 3 months, this would help people get on there feet,

If i was to become unemployed, i would be better off, and treats in life would be the same as they are now,

I think the idea off getting people off benefits is great, but doing it in a manner which will force people to take on debt to make ends meet, however that could be the ploy to increase money coming in to the government coffers (i know it was the tories who said it bet they are planning ahead)

It is claimed that 1 in 3 IB claiments are fraudulant

**HailHail** · 10-01-08, 22:19

I tried to use the dole/jobcentreplus to look for a job in

10-01-08, 12:00	#1
wee 162 Bounce Flag Co-Owner Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sunny Leith Age: 34 Posts: 12,697 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 32 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	The weirdest thing ever I agree to an extent with the tories To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. on their getting long term unemployed folk doing stuff in the community thing. The complete cutting off of benefits isn't going to happen unless they also want to re-introduce poorhouses, and there should be an element of carrot as well as stick in it as well, but generally speaking I don't disagree with it at all. What I would like to see is them basically saying that folk should work as many hours in the community as they would have to to earn the same amount in any job if they were getting paid the minimum wage. So if a weeks money is £60 (think it is around that) and the minimum wage is £6 then they have to work 10 hours. Give expenses for bus fares plus a couple of quid for a meal to them as well. I'd also make it something that those who are not being forced into it should be able to opt into. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. quality='high' bgcolor='#006699' width='300' height='184' name='indecision_2008_action_item' align='middle' allowScriptAccess='always' allownetworking='external' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage=' To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.” Timothy Leary

10-01-08, 12:53	#4
HenryLB On the Wagon Radge Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: London Posts: 3,410 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 10 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: The weirdest thing ever It's age catching up with you. Weirdly I'm travelling leftwards as I get older. At some point we might meet in the middle. If we both live to 2150 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. What do people think of the Incapacity Benefit proposals? __________________ At Easter Road they stay...

10-01-08, 21:41	#16
hibs1986 Serious Radge Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 507 Thanks: 20 Thanked 13 Times in 5 Posts Rep Power: 3 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: The weirdest thing ever Does anyone remember the Manpower Services Commission? Did they not do something similar - community based work that involved training (and qualification, maybe?). I remember it being abolished, but not much else.

10-01-08, 22:03	#18
madkink HGV DRIVING & DAD TO BE (again) RADGE Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: KELTY Age: 26 Posts: 4,889 My Mood: Thanks: 87 Thanked 209 Times in 111 Posts Rep Power: 16 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats: Six Feet Under Champion! Tournaments Won: 1	Re: The weirdest thing ever The one thing that keeps most people on any benefit, is the fact that they (mostly) are unskilled or skilled in an area no longer required, So gives not many options, ie van driver, labourer (not demeaning (sp?) these jobs) But you then have to look at the fact that these are min wage, soon as you start your job you have to pay rent, council tax so from your first wage, you are skinted, i think that that an "ease in to work" where you are given help with these things, mayby you only pay 1/2 rent and council tax for the first 3 months, this would help people get on there feet, If i was to become unemployed, i would be better off, and treats in life would be the same as they are now, I think the idea off getting people off benefits is great, but doing it in a manner which will force people to take on debt to make ends meet, however that could be the ploy to increase money coming in to the government coffers (i know it was the tories who said it bet they are planning ahead) It is claimed that 1 in 3 IB claiments are fraudulant __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. My Countdown Is........ Counting down to: HGV DRIVER TRAINING START DATE TIME TO START DRIVER TRAINING - BE CAREFUL - I AM ON THE ROADS AS YOU READ

10-01-08, 22:19	#19
HailHail Teh pegsella Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Embra Age: 30 Posts: 5,638 My Mood: Thanks: 218 Thanked 65 Times in 35 Posts Rep Power: 12 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: The weirdest thing ever I tried to use the dole/jobcentreplus to look for a job in