irish nationalism, me, you, and er...kosovo

[egb_hibs]

apologies for this - regulars will know my difficulty in keeping things simple.

i may try out portions of this post on a celtic board later, just for fun.

anyway - what is your position on irish nationalism? i'm guessing quite a few won't give a feck, but some will.

i consider myself a moderate irish nationalist. as a subject it concerns me very much less than things to do with scotland, but given my roots, perhaps more than most political questions outside caledonia.

by moderate irish nationalist i mean that i'd like to see ireland united and independent of the uk, but i believe this needs majorities in the north and in the whole of ireland to be legit.

i expect - though may be wrong (i won't be on a celtic board) - that others will see the nationalist claim as stronger, and not necessarily dependent on such consensus.

if you consider yourself in this camp, can i ask you in your reply to compare your view to whatever one you may hold - if you've thought about it at all - on kosovo.

i nurse a suspicision that the che guevera tims will favour a harder line on the claim of irish nationalism than moi, and yet take the muslim side in kosovo.

but why?

kosovo was historically part of greater serbia and it's muslim population are analagous - if imperfectly so - to the NI prod population. they are the product of an imperial power, and adaptation to it's mores. afaik they are native that were converted to the turks religion, rather than as in ireland, shipped over by their (approximate) co-religionists from neighbouring territory, but the dynamics are pretty close.

in both cases the end result is a majority in a subset of the historical nation, with different cultural attributes and loyalties that are the product of historical imperial subjugation.

and yet i suspect most would grant the kosovars autonomy by dint of their long settlement in the area and their majority within it. fine. but how can that be squared with denying the same rights to the descendants of the scottish plantationists in NI?

i may be barking up the wrong tree, but i do suspect that even if we don't get it here, i'd be able to cause consternation with our weegie friends with this question?

all and any comments on any of this ramble welcome;

from the basic question of your position on ireland, if it is assertive nationalism what's your take on the serb comparison, and if it isn't, any comments on my logic as a dry run before i take it to the sellick massive?

[sKipper]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

apologies for this - regulars will know my difficulty in keeping things simple.

i may try out portions of this post on a celtic board later, just for fun.

anyway - what is your position on irish nationalism? i'm guessing quite a few won't give a feck, but some will.

i consider myself a moderate irish nationalist. as a subject it concerns me very much less than things to do with scotland, but given my roots, perhaps more than most political questions outside caledonia.

by moderate irish nationalist i mean that i'd like to see ireland united and independent of the uk, but i believe this needs majorities in the north and in the whole of ireland to be legit.

i expect - though may be wrong (i won't be on a celtic board) - that others will see the nationalist claim as stronger, and not necessarily dependent on such consensus.

if you consider yourself in this camp, can i ask you in your reply to compare your view to whatever one you may hold - if you've thought about it at all - on kosovo.

i nurse a suspicision that the che guevera tims will favour a harder line on the claim of irish nationalism than moi, and yet take the muslim side in kosovo.

but why?

kosovo was historically part of greater serbia and it's muslim population are analagous - if imperfectly so - to the NI prod population. they are the product of an imperial power, and adaptation to it's mores. afaik they are native that were converted to the turks religion, rather than as in ireland, shipped over by their (approximate) co-religionists from neighbouring territory, but the dynamics are pretty close.

in both cases the end result is a majority in a subset of the historical nation, with different cultural attributes and loyalties that are the product of historical imperial subjugation.

and yet i suspect most would grant the kosovars autonomy by dint of their long settlement in the area and their majority within it. fine. but how can that be squared with denying the same rights to the descendants of the scottish plantationists in NI?

i may be barking up the wrong tree, but i do suspect that even if we don't get it here, i'd be able to cause consternation with our weegie friends with this question?

all and any comments on any of this ramble welcome;

from the basic question of your position on ireland, if it is assertive nationalism what's your take on the serb comparison, and if it isn't, any comments on my logic as a dry run before i take it to the sellick massive?

Kosovo doesn't have that many Muslims. The population is mainly Albanian and Serbian.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by sKipper

Kosovo doesn't have that many Muslims. The population is mainly Albanian and Serbian.

and 'albanian' is a euphimism for...

[tortohibee]

nice wee topic to bring up EGB. as a teenager i was well for the irish cause as supporting the hibs and mingling with 5-1 yams i didnt have a choice. im a proddy (COS)but agnostic although i still frequent the church 2-3 times a year. but i always took the nationalistic cause because i believed in it against the way i was brought up.


i feel much more affinity to supporting hibs than i did the church and i love rubbing up my very proddy releaives that i supported a pape team.

so anyhoo i am very much a nationalist than being influenced by religeon or that shite and have a mind of my own to what is right and proper and what should be the self determination of a nation wich unfortunatly our country colonised and caused the state it was in for many a year.

[tortohibee]

[YOUTUBE]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Or8Sfy3JlM[/YOUTUBE]


i love this shit not my cup of tea but fuck it


[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[tortohibee]

much sorry mods.


crigamungus

delete if appropriate

[tortohibee]

OMG



some knober just posted me something horrific. i am gobsmacked greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

DISTURBING AS HELL .

FFS thst was grim

[Smurf]

Late night Torto?

[brianmac]

Originally Posted by tortohibee

[YOUTUBE]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Or8Sfy3JlM[/YOUTUBE]


i love this shit not my cup of tea but fuck it


[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

Always been one of my favourites

[supastar]

I'm in support of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. Anything to get it up those Serb ****.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by brianmac

Always been one of my favourites

With respect to you both, I think it is utter filth.

[alexi]

Originally Posted by Northern Ireland Hibby

With respect to you both, I think it is utter filth.

Yup.

Unless you are actually Irish why have a strong opinion on the subject?? What gives you the right to decide how another nations residents are to live?? For the record my Mum,raised an Ulster Protestant, would vote for a united Ireland but is very proud to be an Ulster lass.One thing she cannot understand is why so many Scots feel the need to stick their nose in where it doesnt concern them.Stick to your own contry....it needs you more.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by alexi

Yup.

Unless you are actually Irish why have a strong opinion on the subject?? What gives you the right to decide how another nations residents are to live?? For the record my Mum,raised an Ulster Protestant, would vote for a united Ireland but is very proud to be an Ulster lass.One thing she cannot understand is why so many Scots feel the need to stick their nose in where it doesnt concern them.Stick to your own contry....it needs you more.

That's a ridiculous opinion IMO...

For one the North of Ireland is currently part of the UK. As is Scotland. Therefore it's part of us.

Also, in the event of there being a united Ireland it would be a part of the European Union. As is the UK. As would an independent Scotland.

I want there to be a united Ireland. But unless the people of the north & south vote for that it shouldn't IMO happen.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by alexi

Yup.

Unless you are actually Irish why have a strong opinion on the subject?? What gives you the right to decide how another nations residents are to live?? For the record my Mum,raised an Ulster Protestant, would vote for a united Ireland but is very proud to be an Ulster lass.One thing she cannot understand is why so many Scots feel the need to stick their nose in where it doesnt concern them.Stick to your own contry....it needs you more.

As some Coosheders know, I feel very much the same way. I don't give a hoot about Kosovo (as an example) as it isn't my problem. In an ideal world, I think it would have been better for NI if a lot less armchair revolutionaries overseas on both sides, with their bloodthirsty terrorism fetish, had taken an interest. They can't possibly understand the true nature or what life is like in towns controlled by the various 'letter police' pond-life (the Salford thread gives some idea).

Saying that, there are quite a few people on the Bounce I respect, so I also respect their right to have an opinion on whatever they want.

[alexi]

Originally Posted by Smurf

That's a ridiculous opinion IMO...

For one the North of Ireland is currently part of the UK. As is Scotland. Therefore it's part of us.

Also, in the event of there being a united Ireland it would be a part of the European Union. As is the UK. As would an independent Scotland.

I want there to be a united Ireland. But unless the people of the north & south vote for that it shouldn't IMO happen.

Yes its part of the UK but as we wouldnt have to live there( or are from there) why the feck do people feel the need to force their views on it? Do they feel strongly about Wales as well?? Hell, England is part of the Uk, lets all call for English seperation( this would be good!!)

[brianmac]

Originally Posted by Northern Ireland Hibby

With respect to you both, I think it is utter filth.

Each to their own C. It's not sectarian and just says that the Irish will fight british soldiers, which i think they have every right to do.

Originally Posted by alexi

Yup.

Unless you are actually Irish why have a strong opinion on the subject?? What gives you the right to decide how another nations residents are to live?? For the record my Mum,raised an Ulster Protestant, would vote for a united Ireland but is very proud to be an Ulster lass.One thing she cannot understand is why so many Scots feel the need to stick their nose in where it doesnt concern them.Stick to your own contry....it needs you more.

I'm very proud to be Scottish and if the day ever came that we had to fight british soldiers then i for one would, reluctantly, take up arms against them.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by Smurf

That's a ridiculous opinion IMO...

For one the North of Ireland is currently part of the UK. As is Scotland. Therefore it's part of us.

Also, in the event of there being a united Ireland it would be a part of the European Union. As is the UK. As would an independent Scotland.

I want there to be a united Ireland. But unless the people of the north & south vote for that it shouldn't IMO happen.

And even at that, we'd need to come up with an imaginative way of keeping the very large unionist vote in NI happy or we'd just end up with another conflict again.

The DUP sometimes hint that they would accept some kind of joint British-Irish-mainly independence control and - if someone can figure out the details - I'd be all for it.

I think it is easy for anyone (not referring particularly to you S) to be romantic, but NI is now a very successful economy so a workable solution is needed, not just one which gives overseas Irish nationalists a warm fuzzy glow.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by alexi

Yes its part of the UK but as we wouldnt have to live there( or are from there) why the feck do people feel the need to force their views on it? Do they feel strongly about Wales as well?? Hell, England is part of the Uk, lets all call for English seperation( this would be good!!)

I'm sure if there were divisions or tensions in Wales there would be opinions on it...

Also, a paramilitary organisation were planting bombs on the mainland of the UK for over 20 years that killed many innocents so i'd expect it kind of provoked reactions and opinions...

[alexi]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I'm sure if there were divisions or tensions in Wales there would be opinions on it...

Also, a paramilitary organisation were planting bombs on the mainland of the UK for over 20 years that killed many innocents so i'd expect it kind of provoked reactions and opinions...

Thankfully Wales is more secular than Ulster.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by alexi

Thankfully Wales is more secular than Ulster.

So there you go!