irish nationalism, me, you, and er...kosovo

[tortohibee]

Originally Posted by tortohibee
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OMG



some knober just posted me something horrific. i am gobsmacked greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

DISTURBING AS HELL .

FFS thst was grim

ill never sleep now
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[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by sKipper
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Think it would struggle to compete with Scotland on that score but it wasn't the scenery I was talking about. It was the astounding fact that peple are taken at face value there now with religion not an issue.
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Politics was always the issue, as opposed to religion.

No one ever petrol bombed a house because of the householder's views on the reformation. Besides, each side were often petrol bombing 'their own'.

I'd say Newry Hibby's statement applies to the vast, vast majority of people in NI these days. Aside from wee small pockets of Belfast, North Antrim, Armagh, Derry and Craigavon, most people are more concerned about their mortgage payments and such these days than they are about disliking someone because of their political views.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by Dixie Chicken
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There are big problems posed by the acceptance of historical precedence as ultimate international arbiter. The USA won't accept it for a start, or else 95% of the population would lose their claim to live here. So point #1 is that practicalities are more important that precedents. Would it be possible to undo the Ulster plantations and forcibly 'repatriate' Ulster protestants to where their forefather migrated from 400 years ago? No more possible than sending the puritans back from Massachusetts, it's a non-starter. So although catholic Irish have precedence on their side, it counts for nothing. The reality is that Northern Ireand today has a mixed religious community, and it is today that matters. Somehow the people there have to find a way of living with each other. A great starting point is the rejection of the past as arbiter of rival claims.

...and an end to the use of the past in the tedious and currently endless 'we're bigger victims than you are' contest being played out by a minority.

I didn't answer the original post about Kosovo directly as I've no strong views on the situation there.

Your point about the reality of the NI we are faced with today is an extremely good one - it is a politically mixed place and all the 'Brits out' and 'Not an inch' nonsense isn't going to achieve a single thing. More and more people though, having been given a taste of a successful NI, will - in time - be willing to settle for some kind of imaginative solution along the lines of that mentioned in a previous post.

PS - Long time no speak. Hope all is well with you and yours.

[Newry Hiby]

Originally Posted by Northern Ireland Hibby
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...and an end to the use of the past in the tedious and currently endless 'we're bigger victims than you are' contest being played out by a minority.

I didn't answer the original post about Kosovo directly as I've no strong views on the situation there.

Your point about the reality of the NI we are faced with today is an extremely good one - it is a politically mixed place and all the 'Brits out' and 'Not an inch' nonsense isn't going to achieve a single thing. More and more people though, having been given a taste of a successful NI, will - in time - be willing to settle for some kind of imaginative solution along the lines of that mentioned in a previous post.

PS - Long time no speak. Hope all is well with you and yours.

just right conor northern ireland nowadays isnt just about 2 religions we are a country of many nationalities and we all want the same thing peace and happiness for all. in newry we have 3000 poles and lots of brazilians portugese english scots lituanians we are all happy as a community thats all that maters.

[Stirlinghibee]

I've kinda been waiting for a long time for a NI thread to appear so I could join in the debate.
I once spent a night on Wiki reading about the "troubles" , starting from the b attle of the bogside. I had to admit by the end of it my admiration to the people of NI rose 100 fold. I can only think that all you guys can give Baghdad the help and advice it needs. It must have been fecking terrible when it was at it's worst ie Bobby Sands death, Internment, Stone at the funeral etc.
I hope and wish that peace will be permanent, but i fear that too many lunatics on either side are still defining themselves by their tribe, which is a simmering pot stirred every mid July.
The future for NI, as for all the British isle nations ,I hope will be independance from each other politically with everyone being a member of the council of the isles for the things that mutually concern us.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by Stennyhibee
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I've kinda been waiting for a long time for a NI thread to appear so I could join in the debate.
I once spent a night on Wiki reading about the "troubles" , starting from the b attle of the bogside. I had to admit by the end of it my admiration to the people of NI rose 100 fold. I can only think that all you guys can give Baghdad the help and advice it needs. It must have been fecking terrible when it was at it's worst ie Bobby Sands death, Internment, Stone at the funeral etc.
I hope and wish that peace will be permanent, but i fear that too many lunatics on either side are still defining themselves by their tribe, which is a simmering pot stirred every mid July.
The future for NI, as for all the British isle nations ,I hope will be independance from each other politically with everyone being a member of the council of the isles for the things that mutually concern us.

I appreciate your comments and respect your views but, as I say with respect, I'm not sure that you're looking at the Troubles from anything but just one point of view.

"Bobby Sands death, Internment, Stone at the funeral etc" is a fairly selective list of events unless you mean the resulting choas which was caused for all communities, not just nationalist/republican.

One of the challenges for NI is to deal with the past in a way that people recognise the suffering of all others and not just one community.

[Stirlinghibee]

Sorry NI, my examples were meant to be just some of the examples I could remember and the riotous aftermath, I should also have said the Chip Shop bombing and Drumcree riots or Ohmah as well. I was not meaning any one side or the other.

Do you feel that things will get so much better that the walls will eventually come down? Or do things like Orangeism /Republicanism with all it's tribal trappings (marching bands et al) mean that it be difficult to leave the past behind? We can help in Scotland by getting our government to ban all that shite, but the Old Firm are like the Ghosts at the feast here over here.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Sorry NI, my examples were meant to be just some of the examples I could remember and the riotous aftermath, I should also have said the Chip Shop bombing and Drumcree riots or Ohmah as well. I was not meaning any one side or the other.

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And apologies if I appeared to be patronising but one-sided victimhood is a big thing over here at the moment among some groups and it is a big obstacle, IMHO, to progress.

Do you feel that things will get so much better that the walls will eventually come down? Or do things like Orangeism /Republicanism with all it's tribal trappings (marching bands et al) mean that it be difficult to leave the past behind? We can help in Scotland by getting our government to ban all that shite, but the Old Firm are like the Ghosts at the feast here over here.

Things are already much better and people's efforts are generally diverted into the successful place NI, especially Belfast, has become. Political views aren't so much of an obsession for the majority of people these days, although certain places are going to take longer to catch up.

Loyalism (as opposed to Orangeism*) and republicanism, in the current climate across here, tend to very slowly dilute in the severity of their views and approach and you'd hope that this effect will accelerate down the generations.

At the end of the day all we can do is hope that more and more people learn to respect the views of others, and we're making progress on that all the time. People are learning to allow others to have their own culture, and they have the right - if they have done this - to expect the same in return.

All this achieves, of course, is a kind of over-governed, expensive peace but doesn't really answer the constitutional question, beyond the things set down in the Good Friday Agreement. I'm told that some within the DUP have hinted that some kind of dual-government overseen independence might be acceptable and I would certainly see that as the way forward.

But if we don't get to looking at that type of arrangement for a couple of generations, then that'd be no bad thing as it'll give people in some areas more time to learn to live with each other.

* BTW, I'm not sure if this is the case in Scotland, but some Orangemen across here are fairly tame in terms of their politics. A certain section of Orange folk in NI are conservative old duffers from a different age, and aren't necessarily subscribers to Paisley's 'not an inch' approach of old.