is africa better off now than under colonialism?

[egb_hibs]

yes / no and on what basis?

efforts to imagine this from an african's point of view, rather than a white liberals, might be particularly useful.

that said, even i am unable to get over my indoctrination on this one, so i'd say 'yes' but with no idea whatsover why i've said it. and deep down i suspect my answer has fuck all to do with them.

in my defence i could, i suppose, at last resort chuck out some contextually meaningless libertarain platitude like 'live free or die'. and then realise what a **** it makes me sound in context.

still, even that card isn't available to those to my left, so i'm hoping they'll have better answers.

[Riordan]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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yes / no and on what basis?

efforts to imagine this from an african's point of view, rather than a white liberals, might be particularly useful.

that said, even i am unable to get over my indoctrination on this one, so i'd say 'yes' but with no idea whatsover why i've said it. and deep down i suspect my answer has fuck all to do with them.

IMO africa is a tricky one, mabay with colonialism there would be slightly more wealth in some countries, alot of them would still be very poor. The many issues like AIDS, famine, poverty and civil war have differents roots and i think it wouldn't make a difference to the whole of africa as a nation if parts were still colonies of france, uk, holland, ect. there would deffinatly be more better off countries, but still ones with huge problems so i will say no.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Ma-Kalambay!
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IMO africa is a tricky one, mabay with colonialism there would be slightly more wealth in some countries, alot of them would still be very poor. The many issues like AIDS, famine, poverty and civil war have differents roots and i think it wouldn't make a difference to the whole of africa as a nation if parts were still colonies of france, uk, holland, ect. there would deffinatly be more better off countries, but still ones with huge problems so i will say no.

This doesn't seem to follow. Colonial powers bled resources out of the colonies. India suffered appalling famines under British rule which stopped once the British left.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Colr
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This doesn't seem to follow. Colonial powers bled resources out of the colonies. India suffered appalling famines under British rule which stopped once the British left.

india is different though. there was a pre-existing structure - albeit one imposed by potentially the most murderous conquest ever if you go back a bit - in terms of the moghuls.

by contrast, much of africa was literally in the dark ages.

some of the african colonies were models of prosperity compared to today, even if the bulk of it went to white ruling classes as opposed to kleptocratic tribal based ruling classes.

as i say, i have a pavlovian commitment to saying that yes they're better off, but i can't really come up with a rational grounding for it. which, uncomfortably puts me squarely in the territory i usually like to take potshots at; that of the unthinking product of the indoctrination of the beeb, the guardian and the academy.

anyway; sad to say, but you see deeper historical / cultural traditions manifest in the former colonial territories; for example - from the nearest, ireland, where the alternative govt provided by a unique form of theocracy is shed, and ireland quickly - albeit with EU aid - normalises in european terms. india, carries on as before, with a caste based hierarchy holding shit together and capitalising on things learned from the west to accelerate progress. africa meanwhile, seems to be decivilising into the pre-colonial idyll / darwinian nightmare (delete according to prejudice) it was before western ideas were rudely projected onto it without any prior foundations.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Ma-Kalambay!
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IMO africa is a tricky one, mabay with colonialism there would be slightly more wealth in some countries, alot of them would still be very poor. The many issues like AIDS, famine, poverty and civil war have differents roots and i think it wouldn't make a difference to the whole of africa as a nation if parts were still colonies of france, uk, holland, ect. there would deffinatly be more better off countries, but still ones with huge problems so i will say no.

they may have different specific roots - although i'm mostly sceptical, other than AIDS where there does seem to be a genetic element at work. but at a minimum, if they're not caused by an absence of getting the political shit together, they certainly run amok because of it.

[Riordan]

Originally Posted by Colr
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This doesn't seem to follow. Colonial powers bled resources out of the colonies. India suffered appalling famines under British rule which stopped once the British left.

then again, i might not know as much as i think i do. i am only 14 what do i know
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[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Ma-Kalambay!
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then again, i might not know as much as i think i do. i am only 14 what do i know
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more than me or col did at that age, i'd wager.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Ma-Kalambay!
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then again, i might not know as much as i think i do. i am only 14 what do i know
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I only recently became aware of the Indian famines myself - wouldn't say I know much about it.

Having said, the Africans are not well served (or served at all) by many of their leaders.

I suspect that Wee162 will know a lot about the evils of imperialism.

[Riordan]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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more than me or col did at that age, i'd wager.

hmm why thank you, i get the impression you are both wisdomous people, amazing how good the school system is these days (or not!)

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Ma-Kalambay!
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hmm why thank you, i get the impression you are both wisdomous people, amazing how good the school system is these days (or not!)

Its all an act!!!
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[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Ma-Kalambay!
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hmm why thank you, i get the impression you are both wisdomous people, amazing how good the school system is these days (or not!)

read. that's everything.

if i was to presume to offer further counsel; read widely. we all tend towards reinforcement of our biases, but it's worth it to try and fight against that.

[Riordan]

Originally Posted by Colr
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Its all an act!!!
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nah i regualarly read you'r threads on current affairs with great interest. good act mate

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Ma-Kalambay!
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nah i regualarly read you'r threads on current affairs with great interest. good act mate

was referring to egb!!
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only joking.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Colr
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was referring to egb!!
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only joking.

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[Archie]

There is no quick answer to this - the economy, globalisation, primary markets and technology have changed so dramatically that it is difficult to surmise. An example of how technology changes have made the comparison difficult. In the 19th and 20th century, a colonial power had to put infrastructure in place to extract primary products. So there would be railways, roads, telegraph communications etc. Now the approach is different. Oil extraction is mostly off the coast, workers live in compounds, are flown in and communications are by uplink. So the benefit to the country is less. there is even less need for order as only the primary extraction areas would need protected.

In any event, colonies were an idea past their sell by dates. they cost money and the US was a huge influence in ending colonies post war - ther didn't sit with free trade notions.

The wider point to make is more philosophical. I think there is a parallel argument about slavery. Some economic historians assessed the health etc. of slaves in the 1860's and compared that to post emancipation conditions. They appeared to demonstrate that slaves were better off and healthier. But i don't think even EGB would make a case for slavery!

But one thing that can't be ignored. The post colonial African situation is not solely down to Africans. Artificial boundaries, colonial wars and real politik have have arguably as significant an impact as indigenous factors. I don't know how you would assess the relative importance, but trying to suggest that you switch off colonialism and somehow that has no subsequent impact doesn't wash.

[Smurf]

I don't know enough to answer this.

However, on the surface my first thought is 'If it's NOT then fuck me Africa really must be fucked through own goals..'.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Archie
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Some economic historians assessed the health etc. of slaves in the 1860's and compared that to post emancipation conditions. They appeared to demonstrate that slaves were better off and healthier. But i don't think even EGB would make a case for slavery!

i have made my feeble argument against that. what's yours against - if not slavery itself - the preferrability of dying under a despot with the same skin tone, versus living under one of another?

But one thing that can't be ignored. The post colonial African situation is not solely down to Africans. Artificial boundaries, colonial wars and real politik have have arguably as significant an impact as indigenous factors. I don't know how you would assess the relative importance, but trying to suggest that you switch off colonialism and somehow that has no subsequent impact doesn't wash.

agreed. but how we carved national boundaries is to me a point that is given inappropriate priority over the fact that idea of the nation was an is alien. and it's a precondition for modernity - that or empire.

[Archie]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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i have made my feeble argument against that. what's yours against - if not slavery itself - the preferrability of dying under a despot with the same skin tone, versus living under one of another?

Actually I think race is irrelevant - it's about political power. Some indigenous peoples benefited out of colonialism by collaborating. But there is no doubt - the colonialists did not have the country's interests at heart - that lay elsewhere. I think I'd take my chances with someone local thanks very much.