England - Nae Quality Managers & Shite National Team ?

[KerPlunk]

Could the following be a factor ?


CLUB................Manager Nat............Squad Size...........No. of English Players


Arsenal ...............French......................34...............................5
Man Utd..............Scottish.....................36..............................12
Chelsea................Israeli.......................28..............................11
Man City.............Swedish.....................28...............................7
Liverpool..............Spanish.....................31..............................8
Everton...............Scottish....................30..............................11
Portsmouth...........English.....................28..............................10
Aston Villa.............Irish.......................21...............................11
Blackburn.............Welsh......................29...............................4
Newcastle............English.....................27..............................10
West Ham............English.....................33...............................17
Tottenham ..........Spanish....................42...............................17
Reading...............English.....................35................................7
M’boro.................English.....................30..............................18
B’ham.................Scottish....................27...............................8
Bolton ................English.....................33...............................11
Sun’land...............Irish........................29..............................11
Fulham...............Norn Irish...................32..............................11
Wigan.................English......................27..............................11
Derby.................English......................26..............................16


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[Colr]

I don't swallow this argument at all. Its one that the press here make quite a lot but it strike me as pish.

The Premiership attracts some of the best players in the world. That is, inevitably going to push out some of the more mediocre English players ( and Scottish players for that matter). But the ones remaining are amongst the best - the ones who would be in contention for the national side. Week in and out they are playing against players with top international pedigrees rather than workaday humphers. Should that not make them better players at international level?

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by Colr
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I don't swallow this argument at all. Its one that the press here make quite a lot but it strike me as pish.

The Premiership attracts some of the best players in the world. That is, inevitably going to push out some of the more mediocre English players ( and Scottish players for that matter). But the ones remaining are amongst the best - the ones who would be in contention for the national side. Week in and out they are playing against players with top international pedigrees rather than workaday humphers. Should that not make them better players at international level?

But then you've got far fewer English players playing at the highest level and clubs have far less emphasis on developing players as they can simply buy them.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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But then you've got far fewer English players playing at the highest level and clubs have far less emphasis on developing players as they can simply buy them.

Championship teams (like non OF teams) have an incentive to develop players. Anyway, they only need 11.

[oo2beahibby]

Originally Posted by KerPlunk
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Could the following be a factor ?


CLUB................Manager Nat............Squad Size...........No. of English Players


Arsenal ...............French......................34...............................5
Man Utd..............Scottish.....................36..............................12
Chelsea................Israeli.......................28..............................11
Man City.............Swedish.....................28...............................7
Liverpool..............Spanish.....................31..............................8
Everton...............Scottish....................30..............................11
Portsmouth...........English.....................28..............................10
Aston Villa.............Irish.......................21...............................11
Blackburn.............Welsh......................29...............................4
Newcastle............English.....................27..............................10
West Ham............English.....................33...............................17
Tottenham ..........Spanish....................42...............................17
Reading...............English.....................35................................7
M’boro.................English.....................30..............................18
B’ham.................Scottish....................27...............................8
Bolton ................English.....................33...............................11
Sun’land...............Irish........................29..............................11
Fulham...............Norn Irish...................32..............................11
Wigan.................English......................27..............................11
Derby.................English......................26..............................16


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That gives the manager a choice of 215 players to create a squad of 30ish. Also, there are English players based in other countries that can be chosen. Seems fair enough to me.

As for the manager, you might have a point. But IMO the English press do far more harm to their chances of success than any failings on the part of the squad or manager, wherever he may come from.

[Hampden_Hibby]

In the last 20 finals, only 3 Englishmen have managed an FA Cup winning side.

1988 Bobby Gould
1989 Kenny Dalglish
1990 Alex Ferguson
1991 Terry Venables
1992 Graeme Souness
1993 George Graham
1994 Alex Ferguson
1995 Joe Royle
1996 Alex Ferguson
1997 Ruud Gullit
1998 Arsene Wenger
1999 Alex Ferguson
2000 Gianluca Vialli
2001 Gerard Houllier
2002 Arsene Wenger
2003 Arsene Wenger
2004 Alex Ferguson
2005 Arsene Wenger
2006 Rafael Benitez
2007 Jose Mourinho

[Dub]

Originally Posted by Colr
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Championship teams (like non OF teams) have an incentive to develop players. Anyway, they only need 11.

Why, is there a no sub rule darn saff that we havent heard about

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by Colr
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Championship teams (like non OF teams) have an incentive to develop players. Anyway, they only need 11.

Less so since the Championship has loads of foreigners too and it doesn't really go along with your argument that they get to play with the best players in the wolrd, ie. foreigners in the Premiership.

The point is that the more players you have being trained from childhood through to the best of their potential, the better the quality of the national team is likely to be. This is why large nations that play a lot of football generally do better than small ones that play a similar amount, despite them only needing to train 11 players each.

If you bring in loads of foreigners at the top end of the game, it means there are fewer opportunities to play Premiership football for domestic footballers. Coupled with a decline in the academies of the major clubs, it can't be good for the English national team. Long may it continue.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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Less so since the Championship has loads of foreigners too and it doesn't really go along with your argument that they get to play with the best players in the wolrd, ie. foreigners in the Premiership.

The point is that the more players you have being trained from childhood through to the best of their potential, the better the quality of the national team is likely to be. This is why large nations that play a lot of football generally do better than small ones that play a similar amount, despite them only needing to train 11 players each.

If you bring in loads of foreigners at the top end of the game, it means there are fewer opportunities to play Premiership football for domestic footballers. Coupled with a decline in the academies of the major clubs, it can't be good for the English national team. Long may it continue.

I take your point and you may be right about its effect in the longer term. Maybe my point is more restricted to the current situation and the fact that I don't think that the number of foreign players is currently an excuse for the poor stadard of football that England play. Quite the opposite in fact, they should be playing better football as they are pitted against some of the world's best week in week out.

[KerPlunk]

Arsenal's "reserves", average age 21, knocked out Blackburn last night, 3-2 and they finished with 10 men.

Was the team brimming with young English talent ? You decide.

Arsenal: Fabianski, Justin Hoyte, Senderos, Song Billong, Traore, Randall (Barazite 80), Diaby, Denilson, Diarra, Eduardo (Gibbs 115), Bendtner, Barazite (Perez 100).
Subs Not Used: Mannone, Gavin Hoyte.


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[Colr]

Fabianski. Beautiful British name.
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[SG7nil]

Originally Posted by KerPlunk
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Arsenal's "reserves", average age 21, knocked out Blackburn last night, 3-2 and they finished with 10 men.

Was the team brimming with young English talent ? You decide.

Arsenal: Fabianski, Justin Hoyte, Senderos, Song Billong, Traore, Randall (Barazite 80), Diaby, Denilson, Diarra, Eduardo (Gibbs 115), Bendtner, Barazite (Perez 100).
Subs Not Used: Mannone, Gavin Hoyte.


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Unlikely as they only have 5 englishmen on their books!

[Stirlinghibee]

Originally Posted by KerPlunk
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Arsenal's "reserves", average age 21, knocked out Blackburn last night, 3-2 and they finished with 10 men.

Was the team brimming with young English talent ? You decide.

Arsenal: Fabianski, Justin Hoyte, Senderos, Song Billong, Traore, Randall (Barazite 80), Diaby, Denilson, Diarra, Eduardo (Gibbs 115), Bendtner, Barazite (Perez 100).
Subs Not Used: Mannone, Gavin Hoyte.


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Aboot dropped my coffee when I saw Randall. A white Englishman? must have sneaked on the team bus!!

[KerPlunk]

Originally Posted by Stennyhibee
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Aboot dropped my coffee when I saw Randall. A white Englishman? must have sneaked on the team bus!!

He was driving it.
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[KeithTheHibee]

Blackburn have less Englishmen than Arsenal? Feck me
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