Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? - HibeesBounce.com

**hibadelic** · 21-11-07, 16:27

I wonder why Scotland fans can go abroad with no trouble, endearing themselves to the local population whereas the exact opposite is the situation with England?

Are we that fundementally different from the English? Or is it because we don't expect to win and are just there for the laugh? If the latter is the case, once we have a team that we expect to win and has a degree of success, will we become a bunch of hooligans?

Thoughts?

HenryLB · 21-11-07, 16:38

People who follow Scotland are probably nicer, partly because supporting the OF in a zealous manner hoovers some of the twats out of the international football scene.

I do think it makes a small difference though that you're not massively successful. Support thus becomes more about having a laugh (for which you need a sense of humour) and you don't get as many people who are so obsessed with winning that they become lairy if they don't.

Another factor is, I think, that some TA good behaviour is engendered out of a wish to be unlike the English and therefore unlike their football fans. Which is entirely fair enough.

Finally you have a heritage and culture which is, although arguably at its worst a bit cartoonish, vibrantly and unashamedly celebrated by almost everybody. Intelligent people in England are often - and for good reason - worried by ideas like patriotism and nationalism so the kind who might provide a civilising influence to the England travelling support are largely absent.

Tibs · 21-11-07, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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I wonder why Scotland fans can go abroad with no trouble, endearing themselves to the local population whereas the exact opposite is the situation with England?

Are we that fundementally different from the English? Or is it because we don't expect to win and are just there for the laugh? If the latter is the case, once we have a team that we expect to win and has a degree of success, will we become a bunch of hooligans?

Thoughts?

I think quite alot of it is due to having low expectations. when you travel with the TA you do so knowing you're going to have a great time, regardless of the result. also I think now that the TA is famous for its good behaviour it has become kind of self-policing - we are proud of our good reputation and want it to continue. No doubt there are plenty of Scottish fans who have hooliganish tendancies but they would not be welcomed by the majority of the TA.

**wee 162** · 21-11-07, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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I do think it makes a small difference though that you're not massively successful. Support thus becomes more about having a laugh (for which you need a sense of humour) and you don't get as many people who are so obsessed with winning that they become lairy if they don't.

So remind me again why England fans act like knobs, haven't they been paying attention for the last 40 years?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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Another factor is, I think, that some TA good behaviour is engendered out of a wish to be unlike the English and therefore unlike their football fans. Which is entirely fair enough.

Finally you have a heritage and culture which is, although arguably at its worst a bit cartoonish, vibrantly and unashamedly celebrated by almost everybody. Intelligent people in England are often - and for good reason - worried by ideas like patriotism and nationalism so the kind who might provide a civilising influence to the England travelling support are largely absent.

Yip, very close to the mark with that imo, especially the first bit. As England fans got worse, the Tartan Army became more and more angelic by comparison, which had a knock on effect of creating that expectation of the behaviour becoming the norm. I would also say that there are a good number of dicks in the Scotland support, but they are stopped from doing any overall damage by self-policing from the majority.

HenryLB · 21-11-07, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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So remind me again why England fans act like knobs, haven't they been paying attention for the last 40 years?
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England haven't exactly gobbled up the trophies but they're quite a lot better at football than Scotland. You lot rarely expect to qualify for what they insist on calling Major International Tournaments and when you do you haven't exactly set the knockout stages alight
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England almost always qualify and usually expect to progress a bit. In fact the status quo will probably be in place come ten pm tonight...

**wee 162** · 21-11-07, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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England haven't exactly gobbled up the trophies but they're quite a lot better at football than Scotland. You lot rarely expect to qualify for what they insist on calling Major International Tournaments and when you do you haven't exactly set the knockout stages alight
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England almost always qualify and usually expect to progress a bit. In fact the status quo will probably be in place come ten pm tonight...

Not exactly gobbled up the trophies no. Won the same amount of international tournaments as Denmark, Czechoslovakia, and Spain (who are always called bottle merchants and under achievers).

Scotland has a population of 5m. England has a population of 50m and you have won 1 more trophy than us. And that was with the help of very very dodgy refereeing which if it had been against England woulld have resulted in a continuous whining which would not have stopped yet. Plus it was at home.

England are very very much on the second rung of international football which many countries can aspire to including Scotland. They're not an Argentina, Brazil, Italy, France, or Germany. They're much more like a Denmark, a Uruguay,a Sweden, a Czech Republic, or a Croatia who should be quite proud of reaching the latter stages of a tournament rather than thinking they have a divine right to win it.

And I would really like to see England try and get out of a group which contained France and Italy just to qualify for tournaments...

Tibs · 21-11-07, 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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England are very very much on the second rung of international football which many countries can aspire to including Scotland. They're not an Argentina, Brazil, Italy, France, or Germany. They're much more like a Denmark, a Uruguay,a Sweden, a Czech Republic, or a Croatia who should be quite proud of reaching the latter stages of a tournament rather than thinking they have a divine right to win it.

think thats a wee bit harsh. after all England have reached three quarter finals in a row. they're maybe not up there with the very best, Brazil, Argentina, but I reckon they're quite a bit better than Sweden, Denmark and Czech Republic

HenryLB · 21-11-07, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee 162
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Not exactly gobbled up the trophies no. Won the same amount of international tournaments as Denmark, Czechoslovakia, and Spain (who are always called bottle merchants and under achievers).

Scotland has a population of 5m. England has a population of 50m and you have won 1 more trophy than us. And that was with the help of very very dodgy refereeing which if it had been against England woulld have resulted in a continuous whining which would not have stopped yet. Plus it was at home.

Quite an important trophy. England have also only won one more trophy than Equatorial Guinea but you don't see Equatorial Guineans using that as an argument for upping their seeding. And frankly population has nothing to do with the argument. I wasn't suggesting there weren't reasons why Scotland are quite a lot worse at football than England. Just that it remains the case.

Quote:

England are very very much on the second rung of international football which many countries can aspire to including Scotland. They're not an Argentina, Brazil, Italy, France, or Germany. They're much more like a Denmark, a Uruguay,a Sweden, a Czech Republic, or a Croatia who should be quite proud of reaching the latter stages of a tournament rather than thinking they have a divine right to win it.

I rather agree. Still quite a lot better than Scotland then.

Actually I disagree slightly. I don't think England should really be proud to reach the latter stages of a tournament. I think they should expect generally to get somewhere near the QFs - and they often do - and certainly not expect to win.

I hold no brief whatsoever for the English national football team. I couldn't care less whether they win or lose and I despise some of the people who support them. But the widespread perception amongst Scots that England fans think they have a divine right to lift the world cup every time is an illusion. There's a strand of the media that likes to go on about it, but part-time fans seem much more blindly optimistic than those who follow the team seriously. Most people I've met who are very interested in supporting England and who go to games regularly are almost as wryly pessimistic as hibs fans. They have a slightly higher level of expectation but that's hardly completely unwarranted.

Quote:

And I would really like to see England try and get out of a group which contained France and Italy just to qualify for tournaments...

They could hardly do worse than your lot. Tried. Failed. Better luck next time.
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**beefy** · 21-11-07, 17:48

England are not a whole lot better than Scotland.For the record here's the...erm,record..

Scotland wins 41

England wins 42

Draws(that Scotland should have won
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)24

**jockney green** · 21-11-07, 18:01

i think its more to do wi the evolution of the fans behaviour, scottish fans (national team and clubs) were more notorious as being fitba hooligans in the 50s, 60s & 70s than their english counterparts,
because of this violent reputation, the 2nd ibrox disaster, the mc elhone report of 1978 on fan behaviour, then the televised 1980 cup final pagger, the subsequent ban on alcohol an the desire to enforce legislation so the process of curing the problem was well on track by the 80s

these factors surfaced in the english game but were no apparent until the late 70s/80s onwards, in the last decade for example the english national fans hooliganism (an indeed club fans) is a mere shadow of what is was in the preceding 20 years

HenryLB bangs the nail right on the heid by sayin

Another factor is, I think, that some TA good behaviour is engendered out of a wish to be unlike the English and therefore unlike their football fans.

as this strong cultural/societal notion became imbedded in the scottish psyche it became easier to show yer 'scottishness' by being the opposite of what was regarded as 'englishness'

also the media reportin of hooliganism is different in both countries as well particulary from the 80s onwards, scottish reportin was scant an when it was reported it was flippant in regard to incidents whereas english reportin was sensationalist an also appeared tae glorify an to a degree revel or show a sense of pride in hooligan incidents

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**Tkraz** · 21-11-07, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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Finally you have a heritage and culture which is, although arguably at its worst a bit cartoonish, vibrantly and unashamedly celebrated by almost everybody. Intelligent people in England are often - and for good reason - worried by ideas like patriotism and nationalism so the kind who might provide a civilising influence to the England travelling support are largely absent.

Nail on the head there for me.

The other parts are all factors in there too but I think this is the main one.

Hampden_Hibby · 21-11-07, 19:32

I remember an English journalist once writing about it. A journalist who had covered World Cups and Euro Championships.

For him the difference boiled down to this.

When the Scots hit a town, they spread out wherever they can, drinking in as many pubs as they can, talking (pish) to as many locals as they can.

The English take over a pub. Drive the locals out. Cover it in flags proclaiming their particular home town and for a day, that pub and its environs are a bit of England while the locals look on at a distance.

It boils down to being inclusive or exclusive.

Smurf · 21-11-07, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby
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I remember an English journalist once writing about it. A journalist who had covered World Cups and Euro Championships.

For him the difference boiled down to this.

When the Scots hit a town, they spread out wherever they can, drinking in as many pubs as they can, talking (pish) to as many locals as they can.

The English take over a pub. Drive the locals out. Cover it in flags proclaiming their particular home town and for a day, that pub and its environs are a bit of England while the locals look on at a distance.

It boils down to being inclusive or exclusive.

I'd agree. I also think it pretty much extends beyond just their football fans though..

GalegoHibs · 21-11-07, 19:43

Are selective reporting and PR machines also a factor here? I've only been to a couple of Scotland games and have never travelled abroad with the Tartan Army so I don't really know how great or otherwise their behaviour really is.

Okay, I know that organised hooliganism has not been a problem with the Tartan Army for some time but I find it hard to imagine given the drinking that goes on that their behaviour is impeccable even if violence and rioting is rare.

I guess this is a bit controversial here as obviously Rangers and their fans are not popular on this forum but I'm also thinking of the way their visit to Barcelona recently was handled by the Spanish press and indeed on forums like this. There was lots of talk about how the Huns left so much rubbish in the streets, got drunk and pissed in public places in broad daylight etc., but at the end of the day I didn't read of many arrests.

Would it really have been so different had it been Celtic or even Hibs fans? And are the Tartan army above all that kind of thing? That's a genuine question because I don't know the answer.

But I do wonder if some who have a bad reputation... England fans, Rangers fans, are easy meat for a story (where bad behaviour is expected and can always be found if you are looking for it) while others get good press with incidents simply overlooked, eg the thread here about the Scotland fan on the pitch, which I and many others would probably never have known about had it not been highlighted here.

In short, are people just seeing what they want to see to a degree?
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Tibs · 21-11-07, 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalegoHibs
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Are selective reporting and PR machines also a factor here? I've only been to a couple of Scotland games and have never travelled abroad with the Tartan Army so I don't really know how great or otherwise their behaviour really is.

Okay, I know that organised hooliganism has not been a problem with the Tartan Army for some time but I find it hard to imagine given the drinking that goes on that their behaviour is impeccable even if violence and rioting is rare.

I guess this is a bit controversial here as obviously Rangers and their fans are not popular on this forum but I'm also thinking of the way their visit to Barcelona recently was handled by the Spanish press and indeed on forums like this. There was lots of talk about how the Huns left so much rubbish in the streets, got drunk and pissed in public places in broad daylight etc., but at the end of the day I didn't read of many arrests.

Would it really have been so different had it been Celtic or even Hibs fans? And are the Tartan army above all that kind of thing? That's a genuine question because I don't know the answer.

But I do wonder if some who have a bad reputation... England fans, Rangers fans, are easy meat for a story (where bad behaviour is expected and can always be found if you are looking for it) while others get good press with incidents simply overlooked, eg the thread here about the Scotland fan on the pitch, which I and many others would probably never have known about had it not been highlighted here.

In short, are people just seeing what they want to see to a degree?
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yeah thats probaly true to an extent

another factor must be the way other nation's fans see us. Because of our reputation, foreign fans welcome and look forward to hosting the Tartan Army, knowing that there's going to be one big party. Whereas with England they probably expect trouble and so are less welcoming. Also cos of England's reputation, ultras and hooligans in the host country probably see England fans as being a big scalp, but aren't bothered with Scottish fans cos they know we don't have a large hooligan element so not worth the bother?

HenryLB · 21-11-07, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalegoHibs
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Are selective reporting and PR machines also a factor here? I've only been to a couple of Scotland games and have never travelled abroad with the Tartan Army so I don't really know how great or otherwise their behaviour really is.

Okay, I know that organised hooliganism has not been a problem with the Tartan Army for some time but I find it hard to imagine given the drinking that goes on that their behaviour is impeccable even if violence and rioting is rare.

I guess this is a bit controversial here as obviously Rangers and their fans are not popular on this forum but I'm also thinking of the way their visit to Barcelona recently was handled by the Spanish press and indeed on forums like this. There was lots of talk about how the Huns left so much rubbish in the streets, got drunk and pissed in public places in broad daylight etc., but at the end of the day I didn't read of many arrests.

Would it really have been so different had it been Celtic or even Hibs fans? And are the Tartan army above all that kind of thing? That's a genuine question because I don't know the answer.

But I do wonder if some who have a bad reputation... England fans, Rangers fans, are easy meat for a story (where bad behaviour is expected and can always be found if you are looking for it) while others get good press with incidents simply overlooked, eg the thread here about the Scotland fan on the pitch, which I and many others would probably never have known about had it not been highlighted here.

In short, are people just seeing what they want to see to a degree?
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Good points. The police in other countries also prepare for the worst and are more confrontational with England I think. Although English fans have really brought that upon themselves I would imagine an innocent England supporter is much more likely to get a slap from a foreign policeman than a tartan army boy.

Also something that hadn't occured to me earlier (and not taking away from what I posted then) is that sheer numbers are an issue. If you have thousands and thousands of England fans in a foreign city you only need a small % to act badly and they can still do some pretty serious damage. While the TA undoubtedly punch above their weight in numbers a similar percentage of knuckleheads is always going to be fewer and therefore less destructive.

Having said that I still think that the average Scotland fan is likely to be more pleasant abroad than the average England fan...

**el_fletch** · 21-11-07, 19:57

Maybe its because generally most countries dislike the english, and with scotia being the auld enemy they respect that mutual dislike?

Or maybe cos English fans or just genuinely gimps out to cause trouble?

Hampden_Hibby · 21-11-07, 20:06

The key thing about the Tartan's Army good behaviour is that it generally happens abroad. I know for a fact the conduct of the famous Tartan Army going through Queen St Station last Saturday night was absolutely deplorable as they bullied and threatened First ScotRail staff. They don't seem to grasp the arithmetic that they can't all come through in 15 crowded services then all return on the one train because they are incapable of leaving the pub any earlier.

I wonder how they'd feel if some railway shift workers came up to their desk in the call centre on the Monday morning and started pushing them about while hurling verbal abuse at them and offering them a square go. Oh aye and don't forget the throwing up all over the carpet. Somehow I think they wouldn't quite expect to be treated like that at work.

21-11-07, 16:27	#1
hibadelic Radge-a-Casblanca Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,460 Thanks: 4 Thanked 42 Times in 19 Posts Rep Power: 18 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? I wonder why Scotland fans can go abroad with no trouble, endearing themselves to the local population whereas the exact opposite is the situation with England? Are we that fundementally different from the English? Or is it because we don't expect to win and are just there for the laugh? If the latter is the case, once we have a team that we expect to win and has a degree of success, will we become a bunch of hooligans? Thoughts? __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. It fills me with joy to see moshers out jogging.

21-11-07, 16:38	#2
HenryLB On the Wagon Radge Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: London Posts: 3,410 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 10 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? People who follow Scotland are probably nicer, partly because supporting the OF in a zealous manner hoovers some of the twats out of the international football scene. I do think it makes a small difference though that you're not massively successful. Support thus becomes more about having a laugh (for which you need a sense of humour) and you don't get as many people who are so obsessed with winning that they become lairy if they don't. Another factor is, I think, that some TA good behaviour is engendered out of a wish to be unlike the English and therefore unlike their football fans. Which is entirely fair enough. Finally you have a heritage and culture which is, although arguably at its worst a bit cartoonish, vibrantly and unashamedly celebrated by almost everybody. Intelligent people in England are often - and for good reason - worried by ideas like patriotism and nationalism so the kind who might provide a civilising influence to the England travelling support are largely absent. __________________ At Easter Road they stay...

21-11-07, 17:48	#9
beefy Easy Now Radge Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: stuck between the moon and new york city Posts: 7,150 Thanks: 214 Thanked 670 Times in 292 Posts Rep Power: 34 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? England are not a whole lot better than Scotland.For the record here's the...erm,record.. Scotland wins 41 England wins 42 Draws(that Scotland should have won To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. )24 __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

21-11-07, 18:01	#10
jockney green Specky Radge Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: am out there jerry an am lovin every minute of it!!!! Posts: 949 My Mood: Thanks: 28 Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts Rep Power: 4 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? i think its more to do wi the evolution of the fans behaviour, scottish fans (national team and clubs) were more notorious as being fitba hooligans in the 50s, 60s & 70s than their english counterparts, because of this violent reputation, the 2nd ibrox disaster, the mc elhone report of 1978 on fan behaviour, then the televised 1980 cup final pagger, the subsequent ban on alcohol an the desire to enforce legislation so the process of curing the problem was well on track by the 80s these factors surfaced in the english game but were no apparent until the late 70s/80s onwards, in the last decade for example the english national fans hooliganism (an indeed club fans) is a mere shadow of what is was in the preceding 20 years HenryLB bangs the nail right on the heid by sayin Another factor is, I think, that some TA good behaviour is engendered out of a wish to be unlike the English and therefore unlike their football fans. as this strong cultural/societal notion became imbedded in the scottish psyche it became easier to show yer 'scottishness' by being the opposite of what was regarded as 'englishness' also the media reportin of hooliganism is different in both countries as well particulary from the 80s onwards, scottish reportin was scant an when it was reported it was flippant in regard to incidents whereas english reportin was sensationalist an also appeared tae glorify an to a degree revel or show a sense of pride in hooligan incidents To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. SAOR ALBA To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

21-11-07, 19:32	#12
Hampden_Hibby A True Gadgie/Gadgess Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: . Posts: 4,238 Thanks: 0 Thanked 76 Times in 30 Posts Rep Power: 16 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? I remember an English journalist once writing about it. A journalist who had covered World Cups and Euro Championships. For him the difference boiled down to this. When the Scots hit a town, they spread out wherever they can, drinking in as many pubs as they can, talking (pish) to as many locals as they can. The English take over a pub. Drive the locals out. Cover it in flags proclaiming their particular home town and for a day, that pub and its environs are a bit of England while the locals look on at a distance. It boils down to being inclusive or exclusive.

21-11-07, 19:43	#14
GalegoHibs A True Gadgie/Gadgess Join Date: May 2007 Location: Galiza Age: 39 Posts: 2,618 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts Rep Power: 12 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? Are selective reporting and PR machines also a factor here? I've only been to a couple of Scotland games and have never travelled abroad with the Tartan Army so I don't really know how great or otherwise their behaviour really is. Okay, I know that organised hooliganism has not been a problem with the Tartan Army for some time but I find it hard to imagine given the drinking that goes on that their behaviour is impeccable even if violence and rioting is rare. I guess this is a bit controversial here as obviously Rangers and their fans are not popular on this forum but I'm also thinking of the way their visit to Barcelona recently was handled by the Spanish press and indeed on forums like this. There was lots of talk about how the Huns left so much rubbish in the streets, got drunk and pissed in public places in broad daylight etc., but at the end of the day I didn't read of many arrests. Would it really have been so different had it been Celtic or even Hibs fans? And are the Tartan army above all that kind of thing? That's a genuine question because I don't know the answer. But I do wonder if some who have a bad reputation... England fans, Rangers fans, are easy meat for a story (where bad behaviour is expected and can always be found if you are looking for it) while others get good press with incidents simply overlooked, eg the thread here about the Scotland fan on the pitch, which I and many others would probably never have known about had it not been highlighted here. In short, are people just seeing what they want to see to a degree? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

21-11-07, 19:57	#17
el_fletch Radge Private Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Costa Del Lurgan, Co. Armagh. Posts: 211 My Mood: Thanks: 5 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts Rep Power: 2 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? Maybe its because generally most countries dislike the english, and with scotia being the auld enemy they respect that mutual dislike? Or maybe cos English fans or just genuinely gimps out to cause trouble? __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

21-11-07, 20:06	#18
Hampden_Hibby A True Gadgie/Gadgess Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: . Posts: 4,238 Thanks: 0 Thanked 76 Times in 30 Posts Rep Power: 16 vCash: 500 Arcade Stats:	Re: Why are Scotland fans so different from England fans? The key thing about the Tartan's Army good behaviour is that it generally happens abroad. I know for a fact the conduct of the famous Tartan Army going through Queen St Station last Saturday night was absolutely deplorable as they bullied and threatened First ScotRail staff. They don't seem to grasp the arithmetic that they can't all come through in 15 crowded services then all return on the one train because they are incapable of leaving the pub any earlier. I wonder how they'd feel if some railway shift workers came up to their desk in the call centre on the Monday morning and started pushing them about while hurling verbal abuse at them and offering them a square go. Oh aye and don't forget the throwing up all over the carpet. Somehow I think they wouldn't quite expect to be treated like that at work.