Treating smack addicts

[wee 162]

Thought this was fairly interesting. If I mind right, this was something that was absolutely slated by the right wing press when it was first announced.

It rings true to me that treatment will seriously impact on the level of crime comitted by those on smack, the cost of the treatment will be a lot cheaper than locking people up plus the associated costs of the crimes committed by them, and that an opportunity now exists to also start buying the opium crop from places like Afghanistan which are largely responsible for funding groups like the Taleban...

On the last point in particular I read something over the weekend which says that on the black market a gram of unprocessed opium costs $1.50 in Afghanistan, $2.50 in Pakistan, and with a rise in cost for every border it crosses till in the UK it costs $33. If states start to buy the entire opium crop and treat those with a heroin addiciton using it, then you are not only eliminating a major source of funding for some very dodgy folk involved in the transportation, but you are providing a secure income for those who grow the poppy crop. Assuming the price increases that they will be offered by those who still want to export for the illegal drug market, then presumably a major increase in the price on the street will be seen which would presumably deter many new users from starting in the first place.

So other than folk disliking smack addicts in general, what exactly would be the reasoning behind not doing this other than the political impact it will have for being "soft on drugs"? Because as far as I could see this would have multi-tiered benefits across many different areas...

[Louis Prima]

Because......................... this in itself does not give any emphasis to the change process. This scheme and I dare say it will work for some people prolongs the addiction to heroin. Whereas Methadone is used to get people into services to initiate change. It is not the substance used to minnimalise withdrawal but the people who work in the service, working with the service user who make the difference. In the article it states that it is being used for the "hard end" cases and it might well be the thing for them but there are a few folk out there who actually quite like taking drugs and will see this as nirvannha.

[blue toon hibby]

Interesting concept, but surely it's only looking at one side of the picture? OK, it "suggests" that crimes committed due to heroin addiction may be reduced but we're still left with a lot of addicts aren't we? Cue more and more "hardened addicts" being referred by over-worked GPs, cue more and more immigrants working the system - "Come on over, the smack's free and it's the best of gear."

Not convinced.

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by Louis Prima

Because......................... this in itself does not give any emphasis to the change process. This scheme and I dare say it will work for some people prolongs the addiction to heroin. Whereas Methadone is used to get people into services to initiate change. It is not the substance used to minnimalise withdrawal but the people who work in the service, working with the service user who make the difference. In the article it states that it is being used for the "hard end" cases and it might well be the thing for them but there are a few folk out there who actually quite like taking drugs and will see this as nirvannha.

No doubt but I think the point is that it's not a bad trade off. For the price of giving a few junkies their fix (they'll get it somewhere anyway) you get fewer overdose deaths, less drug related crime and less profit in dealing. If dealing heroin becomes less profitable then long term you'll have fewer addicts.

[Smurf]

Makes sense to me.

Ok they're getting treatment now find them a job..

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by blue toon hibby

Interesting concept, but surely it's only looking at one side of the picture? OK, it "suggests" that crimes committed due to heroin addiction may be reduced but we're still left with a lot of addicts aren't we? Cue more and more "hardened addicts" being referred by over-worked GPs, cue more and more immigrants working the system - "Come on over, the smack's free and it's the best of gear."

Not convinced.

Thing is though that the amount of addicts has done nothing but go up under the current policies anyway. The problem is there, it's not going away, and it puts a huge amount of strain on stuff like police resources. I don't know the figures offhand but I would also have a pretty decent guess that a significant amount of new HIV and Hepatitis cases (which cost an absolute fortune to treat) are due to needles still being shared.

It's also my opinion that a decent amount of people who are addicted to smack probably want to give it up. They might well have liked it when they started taking it, but the fact is that not too many folk would want to live the rest of their life with it. I would also have thought that getting addicts to engage with health services would also be the best way to actual reduction rather than just leaving it as it stands at the moment which has precisely the opposite effect.

I somehow can't see a ton of immigrants landing at Heathrow saying "I want to get on the smack programme, let me in" tbf...

[Greenscratch]

I've said for years that the British Government should be buying its Herion direct from Afghanistan. Our Health service needs it.

But this is too sensible.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Greenscratch

I've said for years that the British Government should be buying its Herion direct from Afghanistan. Our Health service needs it.

But this is too sensible.

Don't see why we don't just feckin Nationalise the Afghan Heroin industry..

[O'Driscoll]

Originally Posted by hibadelic

No doubt but I think the point is that it's not a bad trade off. For the price of giving a few junkies their fix (they'll get it somewhere anyway) you get fewer overdose deaths, less drug related crime and less profit in dealing. If dealing heroin becomes less profitable then long term you'll have fewer addicts.

and this is a good thing??

the arguments given for the methodone programme were exactly the same when it first came out, now it seems like a sick joke. When, like I have you've been burgled by junkies. When you live and work in communities devastated with drugs you lose your sympathy. Dont get me wrong I know addicts that have recovered through methodone but they are few and far between. What really pisses me off though is that a great many people are let down by the NHS every year waiting on operations etc. but every new crackpot idea concerning junkies is taken seriously. Tell you what I'll see if my GP can sort out something to help wean me off my prediliction for red wine.... it would cut down on drunken crime, and there would be less drink related deaths yada yada

I really hope we don't go down the road of using smack to treat smack addiction.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf

Don't see why we don't just feckin Nationalise the Afghan Heroin industry..

So what do you suggest exactly? Leave it as it is? The people who grow poppies in Afghanistan do so because it's the only crop they can get any cash for. There is endemic unemployment. To export it they have to use people who can get it out of the country, so it goes to the Taleban who use the frontier provinces of Pakistan so get it out of the country through there where it's processed into heroin

What exactly are the other solutions? Destroy the opium crops and therefore peoples liveliehoods whilst letting the production just move to other places like Laos, meaning that the problem stays the same here? But then you have even more hostility against the occupying forces in Afghanistan and more support for the Taliban. That's what has been happening, and it has been an umitigated disaster.

[cavalier]

Put the addicts and the staffies in the same field then bomb it!

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by wee 162

So what do you suggest exactly? Leave it as it is? The people who grow poppies in Afghanistan do so because it's the only crop they can get any cash for. There is endemic unemployment. To export it they have to use people who can get it out of the country, so it goes to the Taleban who use the frontier provinces of Pakistan so get it out of the country through there where it's processed into heroin

What exactly are the other solutions? Destroy the opium crops and therefore peoples liveliehoods whilst letting the production just move to other places like Laos, meaning that the problem stays the same here? But then you have even more hostility against the occupying forces in Afghanistan and more support for the Taliban. That's what has been happening, and it has been an umitigated disaster.

You missed my (flippant) point dude.

We're their in anycase. (probably the long haul..) so why don't we take over the industry by nationalising it?

Told ye it was a flippant point. But then again is it? If it was oil?

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by O'Driscoll

and this is a good thing??

the arguments given for the methodone programme were exactly the same when it first came out, now it seems like a sick joke. When, like I have you've been burgled by junkies. When you live and work in communities devastated with drugs you lose your sympathy. Dont get me wrong I know addicts that have recovered through methodone but they are few and far between. What really pisses me off though is that a great many people are let down by the NHS every year waiting on operations etc. but every new crackpot idea concerning junkies is taken seriously. Tell you what I'll see if my GP can sort out something to help wean me off my prediliction for red wine.... it would cut down on drunken crime, and there would be less drink related deaths yada yada

I really hope we don't go down the road of using smack to treat smack addiction.

Except Methadone hasn't worked. Not even remotely.

The definition of madness is to keep on doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

The whole point which I stated at the start is that you remove the need for junkies to be thieving feckers if they are getting their drugs! So presumably there are a lot less burglaries.

You then have them in the system and can try and stop them being junkies.

And I have been broken into in the last year, presumably by junkies, and was brought up in Muirhouse in the 80s. I know that smack is bad. However there are still over 20,000 people addicted to it in Scotland. Let's say that each one of them is responsible on average for 1 piece of robbery per week (I have serious doubts it's that low). When you start mutiplying that up the numbers end up being absolutely staggering. There will still be break ins etc, but if the figures from this are to be believed then there would be a serious reduction from this source...

And btw, do you really want to be weaned off red wine? Methadone is the equivalent of being weaned off red wine and moving you on to white. Surely it is a better idea to control and reduce your intake of red rather than leaving you as addicted to white as you were to red...

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by O'Driscoll

When, like I have you've been burgled by junkies. When you live and work in communities devastated with drugs you lose your sympathy. Dont get me wrong I know addicts that have recovered through methodone but they are few and far between. What really pisses me off though is that a great many people are let down by the NHS every year waiting on operations etc. but every new crackpot idea concerning junkies is taken seriously. Tell you what I'll see if my GP can sort out something to help wean me off my prediliction for red wine.... it would cut down on drunken crime, and there would be less drink related deaths yada yada

I really hope we don't go down the road of using smack to treat smack addiction.

I've been burgled by junkies too. Personally that sort of experience makes me interested in and open minded to possible solutions to the problem. As you say previous strategies have been unsuccessful and I wouldn't imagine giving out heroin would be particularly successful in getting someone to stop taking it. It would have the positive effect of reducing small time crime by junkies and organised crime (dealing, trafficking etc.).

The reason people hate junkies is because of their lifestyle/behaviour. Change that and you've solved the main problem. Do you really care that people are getting high? I couldn't give a flying one, what pisses me off is them breaking into my house while I'm asleep and stealing a handful of CDs and an empty handbag. If the government giving them drugs stops that and puts the dealers out of business it's job done if you ask me.

[O'Driscoll]

Originally Posted by wee 162

Except Methadone hasn't worked. Not even remotely.


The whole point which I stated at the start is that you remove the need for junkies to be thieving feckers if they are getting their drugs! So presumably there are a lot less burglaries.


And btw, do you really want to be weaned off red wine? Methadone is the equivalent of being weaned off red wine and moving you on to white.

in the early days the methodone programme was thought to be working which is why it was rolled out.

the less burglaries argument was used about the methodone programme but once the junkies got used to the methodone it just added to their ever increasing demand for drugs and crime went up again.

my wine remark was flippant but designed to illustrate the rediculousness of the smack proposal.

[Stanton Warrior]

Why are we trying to "treat" something that isn't an illness?????

[blue toon hibby]

The sad truth is, no matter what you do to "treat" the hardened addicts, there will always be more gullible/vulnerable/stupid people climbing on to the merry-go-round and drug-related crime will continue unless these vulnerable people are educated at an early stage and basically frightened off from even trying drugs.

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior

Why are we trying to "treat" something that isn't an illness?????

It's easy to knock trials like this and they'll always be fodder for tabloid hysteria but as Wee162 says, doing the same as we have been won't change the situation.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior

Why are we trying to "treat" something that isn't an illness?????

I'd say addiction was an illness..

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I'd say addiction was an illness..

Then Hibs are an illness!!!cry