Treating smack addicts

[Stanton Warrior]

Originally Posted by TonySoprano
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If I knew that, i'd be a rich and popular man. Well richer and more popular.
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All I'm advocating is that the UK, which has been a spectacularly poor example of how to deal with drug problems, is in a position where trying something new is well worth a shot. And I don't think the stick is the way to go cause the number of drug adicts going to jail just keeps going up.

Fair enough.
I agree that the uk system ain't working.
I agree that something new is worth considering.
What i don't agree with is giving up and supplying the smack for them.

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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What i don't agree with is giving up and supplying the smack for them.

Not that I consider it "giving up" but why not?
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[O'Driscoll]

Originally Posted by Colr
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So, what's the answer? Leave them too it and let Darwin take its course?
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Good question, I am sure that the medical model hasn't worked because as someone said earlier it is an addiction, not an illness!

I have no problem with people getting high but I think they should pay for it from their own funds and work to earn them. To be honest only when junkies really want to kick the habit do they succeed. My original argument is that giving them smack won't do that, it will fail just like methodone.

If smack was not available they would use something else, the problem is not the addiction it is the crime, the neglect of children, the anti social behavoiur and the cost to muggins here, the tax payer.

I think the answer lies in using several approaches mainly social, educational and employment based to help the addicts who want to quit that lifestyle, break the cycle. I also think that a hard line on dealing and smuggling would help. Most importantly the treating of burglary as a 'petty crime' by the police and courts needs reassessed.

thats as near an answer as I can give.

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by O'Driscoll
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the problem is not the addiction it is the crime, the neglect of children, the anti social behavoiur and the cost to muggins here, the tax payer..

Right, so curing them of the addiction isn't the priority. The other issues can be dealt with by controlling the drugs, as mentioned previously.

[O'Driscoll]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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Right, so curing them of the addiction isn't the priority. The other issues can be dealt with by controlling the drugs, as mentioned previously.

Yes we've done really well at that. As mentioned before, when the methodone programme started it appeared to be working, i.e. controlling the drugs and removing the need to comit crime, now we have crime and methodone, and this brilliant new idea - free herion on the NHS - utter nonsense!

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by O'Driscoll
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Yes we've done really well at that. As mentioned before, when the methodone programme started it appeared to be working, i.e. controlling the drugs and removing the need to comit crime, now we have crime and methodone, and this brilliant new idea - free herion on the NHS - utter nonsense!

I figure that if it seems to be working and it works in more progressive countries, it's got to be worth a go. The natural reflex is obviously that giving out heroin is wrong but I don't see why that should be. Addicts are going to buy it anyway, by allowing that to happen you are creating more problems through crime and black market drugs, not to mention more overdoses and serious illness (AIDS, Hepatitis etc.) which also cost the NHS more money.

[Keepitgreen]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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I figure that if it seems to be working and it works in more progressive countries, it's got to be worth a go. The natural reflex is obviously that giving out heroin is wrong but I don't see why that should be. Addicts are going to buy it anyway, by allowing that to happen you are creating more problems through crime and black market drugs, not to mention more overdoses and serious illness (AIDS, Hepatitis etc.) which also cost the NHS more money.

I agree with this.

We've got to start looking at the big picture on drug addiction and try out new methods. It's clear that our system is failing so why not?

[Colr]

Originally Posted by TonySoprano
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Well the Spanish have a comparitively very low rate. Dinnae ask me what their drug policy is though, cause i've no got a clue. The UK has the highest per capita opiate usage rates in Europe.

You got a list? It would be interesting to see if you could draw a line between the low and high use countries and see what the similarities and differences are. It may have more to do with culture. Spain is quite a religious family orientated culture, for example.

[Green Sleeves]

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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Addiction and illness are two very different things. Drug addiction is exactly that. An addiction. NOT an illness.

The words are different but both need treatment.

The key to tackling addiction to street heroin is right in here in Edinburgh. If you get the No.22 bus or the No 30 bus along the Western Approach Road, just after it passes Tynecastle it stops at a very big factory. That's the factory where all of the medical heroin used in the UK is manufactured and something like 75% (I'd need to check the exact figure though) of the medical heroin used worldwide is manufactured.

The second step is prescribing it to registered heroin addicts, and employing and training up the right people to dispense it. As others have said it will mean that every addict on the prescription programme will stop burgling, shoplifting and thieving.... from YOU. It will also mean that the poor hard done by smack dealers will have to watch their captive market collapse in front of their very eyes. Aw diddums.

It would make sense to have carrot-and-stick conditions for such a programme. Such as a commitment from day one that the programme was not indefinite, that after an agreed stablisation period, there would be the goal of retraining for employment, and a gradual decrease in the amount prescribed with the goal of being clean at the end of the programme. But with the programmes tailored to the individual concerned, and discussed continuously.

Schemes like this arent steps into the unknown. Nor do they just hand out smack to anyone who sticks their arm out. Monitoring is tight. Its a results-driven business. And schemes like these have been already been tried successfully in countries like Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland.

The UK goverment changed their drug policy a few years ago (2002 I think it was) and introduced five such pilot schemes. So its already being done here. And they will know from their own data that it works, and can save lives.

Heroin addicts aren't social write-offs. Once off street heroin addicts have got a decent chance to rectify what was a mistake made earleir in ther lives. What's needed is political courage and a degree of social compassion. The alternative is the status quo. Which is fail again, fail better. Which seems like a really shite alternative.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Green Sleeves
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The words are different but both need treatment.

The key to tackling addiction to street heroin is right in here in Edinburgh. If you get the No.22 bus or the No 30 bus along the Western Approach Road, just after it passes Tynecastle it stops at a very big factory. That's the factory where all of the medical heroin used in the UK is manufactured and something like 75% (I'd need to check the exact figure though) of the medical heroin used worldwide is manufactured.

The second step is prescribing it to registered heroin addicts, and employing and training up the right people to dispense it. As others have said it will mean that every addict on the prescription programme will stop burgling, shoplifting and thieving.... from YOU. It will also mean that the poor hard done by smack dealers will have to watch their captive market collapse in front of their very eyes. Aw diddums.

It would make sense to have carrot-and-stick conditions for such a programme. Such as a commitment from day one that the programme was not indefinite, that after an agreed stablisation period, there would be the goal of retraining for employment, and a gradual decrease in the amount prescribed with the goal of being clean at the end of the programme. But with the programmes tailored to the individual concerned, and discussed continuously.

Schemes like this arent steps into the unknown. Nor do they just hand out smack to anyone who sticks their arm out. Monitoring is tight. Its a results-driven business. And schemes like these have been already been tried successfully in countries like Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland.

The UK goverment changed their drug policy a few years ago (2002 I think it was) and introduced five such pilot schemes. So its already being done here. And they will know from their own data that it works, and can save lives.

Heroin addicts aren't social write-offs. Once off street heroin addicts have got a decent chance to rectify what was a mistake made earleir in ther lives. What's needed is political courage and a degree of social compassion. The alternative is the status quo. Which is fail again, fail better. Which seems like a really shite alternative.

Just to add on a bit to that, wrt the Dutch system, anyone on the controlled use programme in Holland is also subject to various conditions. These include not being lifted for anything while they are on it, and a commitment to overall reduction leading to eventual withdrawal from the use of heroin.

And just to add a bit more information, it's strange, but smack users who have not picked up some disease such as HIV or Hep B and withdraw from heroin haven't actually done their body or mind any harm. I find that a bit mental tbh but apparently it's the case.

[TonySoprano]

Originally Posted by Colr
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You got a list? It would be interesting to see if you could draw a line between the low and high use countries and see what the similarities and differences are. It may have more to do with culture. Spain is quite a religious family orientated culture, for example.

I got some stuff from the WHO and UN sites. I'll try and remember to post the links tonight.

Spain was something like 70,000 and falling, compared to 350,000 in the UK. Eastern Europe is pretty poorly off as well.

I know what you're saying about culture, but Italy has a big usage as well, something like 300,000 iirc, although they do of course have a somewhat large drug dealing organisation who don't particularly help I would imagine...

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by TonySoprano
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I got some stuff from the WHO and UN sites. I'll try and remember to post the links tonight.

Spain was something like 70,000 and falling, compared to 350,000 in the UK. Eastern Europe is pretty poorly off as well.

I know what you're saying about culture, but Italy has a big usage as well, something like 300,000 iirc, although they do of course have a somewhat large drug dealing organisation who don't particularly help I would imagine...

Spain & Italy have pretty similar cultures I would say. Certainly a lot closer than the UK & Italy which would suggest that there are other factors than culture involved in the overall use of opiates...

Spain iirc has a very very relaxed drug use enforcement policy.

[TonySoprano]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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Spain & Italy have pretty similar cultures I would say. Certainly a lot closer than the UK & Italy which would suggest that there are other factors than culture involved in the overall use of opiates...

Spain iirc has a very very relaxed drug use enforcement policy.

and Italy has the Mafia!

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by TonySoprano
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and Italy has the Mafia!

And Spain is the route into Europe for huge amounts of the illegal drugs that come in...

[Stanton Warrior]

Originally Posted by Green Sleeves
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The words are different but both need treatment.

Yep. But when somebody is ill and they don't want to get better you can still treat them successfully.
When somebody is addicted and doesn't want to stop taking the substance they're addicted to you can't beat their addiction by treating them.

Originally Posted by Green Sleeves
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The second step is prescribing it to registered heroin addicts, and employing and training up the right people to dispense it. As others have said it will mean that every addict on the prescription programme will stop burgling, shoplifting and thieving.... from YOU.

No it won't.
Simple.
The article into the trial clearly states that 60% were still using street heroin which is funded almost entirely by crime so this program will not stop it. Simple as that. The crime figures they quote are completely un-measurable as i explained in an earlier post

Originally Posted by Green Sleeves
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The UK goverment changed their drug policy a few years ago (2002 I think it was) and introduced five such pilot schemes. So its already being done here. And they will know from their own data that it works, and can save lives.

The UK drug policy is a 10 year plan put in place in 1998 and hence due for re-evaluation next year.
Any pilot-schemes are exactly that, pilots. Not wholesale changes of policy.
If these schemes are working so well and the data backs this up why aren't the government screaming it from the roof-tops as a vote winner????? They're not, because they can't, because they don't work.

Originally Posted by Green Sleeves
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Heroin addicts aren't social write-offs. Once off street heroin addicts have got a decent chance to rectify what was a mistake made earleir in ther lives. What's needed is political courage and a degree of social compassion. The alternative is the status quo. Which is fail again, fail better. Which seems like a really shite alternative.

I couldn't agree more.
Unfortunately before someone can kick an addiction they have to want to. You can't press-gang people into treatment. Well, you can, but it doesn't work.
Do you think giving out free smack will lead to anybody wanting to quit it? Or perhaps more people wanting to try it?

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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Yep. But when somebody is ill and they don't want to get better you can still treat them successfully.
When somebody is addicted and doesn't want to stop taking the substance they're addicted to you can't beat their addiction by treating them.

True, but you can stop them being as involved in the crime which it creates, it will stop them killing themselves with stuff which is cut with rat poisin, and it will help cut the market away from their current dealers.

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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No it won't.
Simple.
The article into the trial clearly states that 60% were still using street heroin which is funded almost entirely by crime so this program will not stop it. Simple as that. The crime figures they quote are completely un-measurable as i explained in an earlier post

And it also quite clearly states that the number of times they have been involved in the street scene has been massively reduced.

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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The UK drug policy is a 10 year plan put in place in 1998 and hence due for re-evaluation next year.
Any pilot-schemes are exactly that, pilots. Not wholesale changes of policy.
If these schemes are working so well and the data backs this up why aren't the government screaming it from the roof-tops as a vote winner????? They're not, because they can't, because they don't work.

Or because it provokes people who share your attitude in the newspapers to write that the government is giving in to junkies and just giving them it for nout. How well do you think that will go down with the public who they need to elect them?

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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I couldn't agree more.
Unfortunately before someone can kick an addiction they have to want to. You can't press-gang people into treatment. Well, you can, but it doesn't work.
Do you think giving out free smack will lead to anybody wanting to quit it? Or perhaps more people wanting to try it?

Well according to the Dutch and Swiss experimentation it does. According to the thing your quoting from it has seen reduced use in the UK.

Breaking a heroin habit is not just about saying "that's it, I'm stopping, but I'll reduce it a bit at a time to make it easier". It's also about changing the social circle people move in which tends to revolve around people going to get smack, and then taking it. It's easier to give it up when you have support of people outside that circle, and since as has been mentioned junkies tend to be thieving feckers most of their relationships outside that group of people they take smack with have broken down.

And changing nothing has seen a steady increase in the number of heroin users. Zero tolerance stuff hasn't worked. Methadone hasn't worked. Maybe trying something else should be tried now.

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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Yep. But when somebody is ill and they don't want to get better you can still treat them successfully.
When somebody is addicted and doesn't want to stop taking the substance they're addicted to you can't beat their addiction by treating them.

The scheme in the article isn't trying to do that.

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior
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No it won't.
Simple.
The article into the trial clearly states that 60% were still using street heroin which is funded almost entirely by crime so this program will not stop it. Simple as that. The crime figures they quote are completely un-measurable as i explained in an earlier post

So it's a failure if it doesn't stop every piece of heroin related crime? Can I suggest that your expectations might just be a tad high? Dealers seeing a 40% drop off in income? Sounds a good start to me.

It also states that in many cases there was a large decrease in the amount of crime they commited and that they were not spending time in the scene. I know you've rubbished that stat already and the figures may well be high especially if relying on junkies giving them but time will show how many are caught offending, how many quit the junk etc.

Originally Posted by Stanton Warrior