Independence minded folk - A question

[wee 162]

I'm curious as to what institutional parts of the current UK folk who want independence would want to retain in an independent Scotland?

For me, the BBC (although with a representative part of the funds raised in Scotland spent here, as opposed to the Scottish subsidising of England which currently goes on).

That's about it really for me.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by wee 162

I'm curious as to what institutional parts of the current UK folk who want independence would want to retain in an independent Scotland?

For me, the BBC (although with a representative part of the funds raised in Scotland spent here, as opposed to the Scottish subsidising of England which currently goes on).

That's about it really for me.

This isn't a question for me but I thought I would interject on the BBC issue. Does Eire not receive the BBC but not contribute to it (I know it has its own channels). Presumably, Scotland would still get the BBC but would hive off its own stations from its cut of the infrastructure. It would then be up to the government of the day to decide whether this home channel (s) would be financed by advertising, assisted by grant funding and, also, whether to abolish the TV license fee (which, I think, would be very popular).

[1875]

Originally Posted by wee 162

I'm curious as to what institutional parts of the current UK folk who want independence would want to retain in an independent Scotland?

For me, the BBC (although with a representative part of the funds raised in Scotland spent here, as opposed to the Scottish subsidising of England which currently goes on).

That's about it really for me.

Having now worked in the Irish Republic for a year and a half and have watched how they operate, I honestly can't think of one thing that we would need to take with us?

[Daddy'O'Hibee]

The military aspect would be interesting, lots of issues, would we remain in NATO, or go down the road of Sweden and Ireland and join other operation bodies, peacekeeping, involvement in Iraq ? Maybe the armed forces, but i'm willing to listen to the debate to sway my thought.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by 1875

Having now worked in the Irish Republic for a year and a half and have watched how they operate, I honestly can't think of one thing that we would need to take with us?

Interesting point M. Always found it amazing how the Scot Nats don't use ROI as an excellent example of how an Independent break away from the UK would flourish..

It certainly makes this 'Unionist' think..

No direspect to ROI but we're also 'richer' in many ways so we could potentially do even better...

Is the ROI not used by the Scot Nats to further cause because of a anti 'Fenian' feeling within 'Protestant Scotland'?dunno:

[Stirlinghibee]

Dunno what I would keep, maybe the armed forces ,as long as we could opt out of anything other than a direct attack on this island.

I got a letter from TGI Fridays yesterday confirming a booking at "Resturant 1483 - Edinburgh England", I wrote back and told them to stuff the booking up their arse. That was for after the Falkirk game on 15th Dec with the rest of the family meeting me and my oldest boy in Castle street.

Do you think this would stop with independence?

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Smurf

Interesting point M. Always found it amazing how the Scot Nats don't use ROI as an excellent example of how an Independent break away from the UK would flourish..

It certainly makes this 'Unionist' think..

No direspect to ROI but we're also 'richer' in many ways so we could potentially do even better...

Is the ROI not used by the Scot Nats to further cause because of a anti 'Fenian' feeling within 'Protestant Scotland'?dunno:

It is used, but only economically. If they started comparing culturally etc they would be in very serious danger of alienating the hunnish elements of the country (who are far from all being huns).

I would also argue that economically is a way in which I would see Scotland not being able to emulate Ireland, short term at least, through independence. Irish economic progress was largely built on EU subsidies which went to them because they were (along with Greece, Portugal, and to a lesser extent Italy) the poorest nations in the EU, and a very aggressive taxation policy designed to attract inward investment. If Scotland became independent I would somehow not see us as being considered as poor as Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria etc and therefore nowhere near as attractive for inward investment...

Scotland should be independent for many reasons imo, and this includes economic arguments (from both left and right). But to compare us with Ireland economically and say "look at them, that's exactly what would happen in Scotland" is completely misleading imo. Yet that is the only argument the SNP uses, and it's down to them recognising the bigotry inherent in large parts of this countrys populace. And they don't want to deal with that.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by wee 162

It is used, but only economically. If they started comparing culturally etc they would be in very serious danger of alienating the hunnish elements of the country (who are far from all being huns).

I would also argue that economically is a way in which I would see Scotland not being able to emulate Ireland, short term at least, through independence. Irish economic progress was largely built on EU subsidies which went to them because they were (along with Greece, Portugal, and to a lesser extent Italy) the poorest nations in the EU, and a very aggressive taxation policy designed to attract inward investment. If Scotland became independent I would somehow not see us as being considered as poor as Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria etc and therefore nowhere near as attractive for inward investment...

Scotland should be independent for many reasons imo, and this includes economic arguments (from both left and right). But to compare us with Ireland economically and say "look at them, that's exactly what would happen in Scotland" is completely misleading imo. Yet that is the only argument the SNP uses, and it's down to them recognising the bigotry inherent in large parts of this countrys populace. And they don't want to deal with that.

Indeed. Scotland is not a poor country. The stats show it is a wealthy as the agragate of the UK. Edinburgh itself is very wealthy with Glasgow not far behind.

[1875]

I agree somewhat with Al on the economics, although I am not sure the Ryan family, Tony O'Reilly, Dermot Desmond, or the Westons would?

Where I find the ROI excellent is their pride in their own culture(s), the numerous reasonably good Irish terrestrial TV stations and daily newspapers and quality magazines. They certainly dispel any myth I have read about wee countries not being able to go it alone.

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by Smurf

Interesting point M. Always found it amazing how the Scot Nats don't use ROI as an excellent example of how an Independent break away from the UK would flourish..

I think the SNP have made reference to the Celtic Tiger economy on many occasions - just a few weeks ago in New York being the latest....

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/This...ign-relations/

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by 1875

Where I find the ROI excellent is their pride in their own culture(s), the numerous reasonably good Irish terrestrial TV stations and daily newspapers and quality magazines. They certainly dispel any myth I have read about wee countries not being able to go it alone.

Spot on Mark. Having lived in the Netherlands I'd apply the same argument to there too.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby

Spot on Mark. Having lived in the Netherlands I'd apply the same argument to there too.

Thanks to the Union of Utrecht and also it is the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.

Shows what you can achieve if you still with thee concepts. Hee, hee.

[HibeeJibee]

I have asked John Swinney, Alex Salmond and Stewart Hosie personally about the issue of Scottish Defence Forces. Essentially speaking the intention is to retain a strong, independent military (the idea of keeping UK-wide force ditched from practicalities). This may seem odd - 'why do we need a big army, air force and navy' but the reasons are actually legitimate. Number 1, as an 'industry' it supports tens of thousands of jobs and although they would like to get the money for other uses, they can't afford to be making such a proportion of people unemployed. (I should point out NATO is bit of a contentious issue.)

Number 2, the fact that although we wouldn't (probably) be going out their and attacking people, we would still have duties as members of the UN and the EU (which has growing defence commitments) and might well want to be involved in peace-keeping operations and interventions, and ongoing commitments in defence of the Empire (which would likely be written into a UK separation agreement I've been told).

Number 3, a large amount of Scottish manufacture is based around building defence equipment (most obviously ships and components for aircraft) and it be dangerous to undermine its base market, the domestic one, both in terms of £££ and because it could discourage foreign countries buying from us.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by wee 162

It is used, but only economically. If they started comparing culturally etc they would be in very serious danger of alienating the hunnish elements of the country (who are far from all being huns).

I would also argue that economically is a way in which I would see Scotland not being able to emulate Ireland, short term at least, through independence. Irish economic progress was largely built on EU subsidies which went to them because they were (along with Greece, Portugal, and to a lesser extent Italy) the poorest nations in the EU, and a very aggressive taxation policy designed to attract inward investment. If Scotland became independent I would somehow not see us as being considered as poor as Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria etc and therefore nowhere near as attractive for inward investment...

Scotland should be independent for many reasons imo, and this includes economic arguments (from both left and right). But to compare us with Ireland economically and say "look at them, that's exactly what would happen in Scotland" is completely misleading imo. Yet that is the only argument the SNP uses, and it's down to them recognising the bigotry inherent in large parts of this countrys populace. And they don't want to deal with that.

Best pro Independence arguement i've ever read on The Bounce.

Good stuff A.

[Green Sleeves]

Originally Posted by wee 162

Scotland should be independent for many reasons imo, and this includes economic arguments (from both left and right). But to compare us with Ireland economically and say "look at them, that's exactly what would happen in Scotland" is completely misleading imo. Yet that is the only argument the SNP uses, and it's down to them recognising the bigotry inherent in large parts of this countrys populace. And they don't want to deal with that.

Al - The SNP use a much more credible economic argument for independence than simply saying look at Ireland. Have a look at this footage of Alex Salmond in America last month and see what you think. I was impressed by Salmond's knowledge and understanding of Scotland's economic potential and by the way he made his case. As evidently was the presenter. Couldnt help think there's no way that McConnell/Alexander would even be capable of making this kind of argument.

[Smurf]

I'm sure his reference to the United States as "America" would go down well elsewhere in America.

[PILTONSTANY]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I'm sure his reference to the United States as "America" would go down well elsewhere in America.

Is that not the same as calling the United Kingdom "Britain" ?

[Green Sleeves]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I'm sure his reference to the United States as "America" would go down well elsewhere in America.

Who would take offence?

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by Colr

Thanks to the Union of Utrecht and also it is the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.

Shows what you can achieve if you still with thee concepts. Hee, hee.

Yes indeed Col, the two unions you refer to both beautifully illustrate what you can achieve when you seek political autonomy. Thank you for these excellent examples.

The union of Utrecht was how the northern Dutch provinces rebelled against Spanish rule and "put Netherlands first" and the United Kingdom of the Netherlands you refer to, lasted all of a glorious 15 years from 1815 to 1830 until the Belgians "put Belgium first", realised the folly of the union and broke it. Your use of the present tense in talking about the United Kingdom of the Netherlands is about 177 years out right enough!

You starting to get all nationalist on us Col?

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by Green Sleeves

Who would take offence?

You never seen folk ripping up Captain America comics?

Crowds booing as Don McLean burst into American Pie!!

Whaaaa! Here's where George W calls them "American families"!!!!!!

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