Trams for Edinburgh - HibeesBounce.com

**SG7nil** · 25-10-07, 07:44

I know this has probably been done to death already on the Bounce, but I heard this morning that the final meeting was taking place today to discuss the proposed tram scheme...

Well I have to say that I think that it's possibly a wee bit late to be holding this meeting since the roadworks to facilitate the trams are already well underway and Leith Walk currently looks like it has been shelled by howitzers there's so many holes in the ground!
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What happens if the Scottish Exec decides to cancel the trams.. that's a lot of money and effort already wasted on the scheme... reminds me of the ill fated road pricing scheme that we nearly had foisted on us which was pulled - after much of the infrastructure of
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s, road narrowing and detection equipment had already been installed!

Do we never learn!
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**Keepitgreen** · 25-10-07, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SG7nil
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I know this has probably been done to death already on the Bounce, but I heard this morning that the final meeting was taking place today to discuss the proposed tram scheme...

Well I have to say that I think that it's possibly a wee bit late to be holding this meeting since the roadworks to facilitate the trams are already well underway and Leith Walk currently looks like it has been shelled by howitzers there's so many holes in the ground!
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What happens if the Scottish Exec decides to cancel the trams.. that's a lot of money and effort already wasted on the scheme... reminds me of the ill fated road pricing scheme that we nearly had foisted on us which was pulled - after much of the infrastructure of
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
s, road narrowing and detection equipment had already been installed!

Do we never learn!
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Completely agree SG, but IMO it doesn't matter how much has been squandered so far, they still need to put the kybosh on this once and for all....
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The trams will be an expensive white elephant on an even grander scale than the parliament. God help us all if they get approved today.

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vasco de gama · 25-10-07, 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepitgreen
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Completely agree SG, but IMO it doesn't matter how much has been squandered so far, they still need to put the kybosh on this once and for all....
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The trams will be an expensive white elephant on an even grander scale than the parliament. God help us all if they get approved today.

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I think they should all sit and watch the Simpsons episode where the dodgy salesman comes to Springfield, persuades them to invest millions in the monorail, bolts with the money and the city gains nothing from a system of transport that isn't needed. Edinburgh is small, the airport isn't far away and the majority of folk who will use the tram would've used our pretty decent bus service already. It adds nothing of value to the city and diverts money that could have been used to fix the giant hole in the education budget.

**SG7nil** · 25-10-07, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by vasco de gama
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I think they should all sit and watch the Simpsons episode where the dodgy salesman comes to Springfield, persuades them to invest millions in the monorail, bolts with the money and the city gains nothing from a system of transport that isn't needed. Edinburgh is small, the airport isn't far away and the majority of folk who will use the tram would've used our pretty decent bus service already. It adds nothing of value to the city and diverts money that could have been used to fix the giant hole in the education budget.

And that's another thing... apparently some of the schools budget has been diverted to pay for the trams! (Tynecastle School was mentioned on the radio this morning!)

**Hibee Kev** · 25-10-07, 09:19

The only person i have heard vigorously defend this is my flatmate who's a civil engineer
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The public transport in Edinburgh as it stands IS NOT THAT BAD! Certainly not as bad as other small cities. The only way to seriously improve it would be to install a comprehensive underground metro system, which is never going to happen. LRT are doing a fine job IMO, is Edinburgh not the only UK city which doesn't have FirstBus running its bus service? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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Cuckoo Hill · 25-10-07, 16:03

Hope the tram meets its costs and doesn't have to be bailed out. The trouble with trams is that they need an awful lot of fare revenue to cover the very heavy capital costs, and for that you need a high population density and an integrated transport system, so that the tram isn't in competition with buses. British cities tend to be lower density than continental cities, but I have no specific knowledge of Edinburgh. Nottingham's tram is usually pretty packed but I don't know if it covers its costs. Too many people fall for the line that trams, because they are electric, don't pollute, whereas electricity generation does of course pollute.

Whereabouts in Edinburgh will the tram run?

Stu · 25-10-07, 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuckoo Hill
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Nottingham's tram is usually pretty packed but I don't know if it covers its costs.

If they don't then someone seriously got their sums wrong. It's standing room only for much of the day and in busy periods it difficult to even get on it due to the crushing. One passed me yesterday and the people at the stop could have filled another one or two complete trams with ease.

I think the fact that two new lines are proposed and likely to happen indicates that the tram pays for itself but I've no knowledge about that. Certainly the people of Nottingham love 'em. Many of them originally had the same reservations I've read about the Edinburgh trams too.

PS Welcome to The Bounce near neighbour!

HibeeJibee · 25-10-07, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuckoo Hill
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Whereabouts in Edinburgh will the tram run?

The first route in the network can be seen here:
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- Phase 1a runs:
Haymarket-Princes St-St Andrew Sq-Picardy Pl-Constitution St-Leith Walk-Ocean Terminal-Newhaven
- Phase 1b runs:
Granton-Waterfront-West Pilton-Crewe Toll-Telford Road-Craigleith-Ravelston-Roseburn-Haymarket
- Phase 2 involves a spur and terminal at Lower Granton

The second route in the network can be seen here:
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- Phase 1a runs:
Haymarket-Murrayfield-Saughton-South Gyle-Edinburgh Park(Rail)-Gyle-Gogarburn-Ingliston P&R-Airport
- Phase 3 is a spur and runs:
Ingliston P&R-Ingliston West-Ratho-Newbridge

The third route in the network can be seen here:
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Waverley-The Bridges-Nicholson Sq-St Patrick Sq-Newington-Minto St-Craigmillar-Cameron Toll -Inch-Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh-Inch-Greendykes-Craigmillar-Niddrie-Fort Kinnaird-Newcraighall P&R

The current financing process is for Phase 1a of the first route, and if it stays on budget this should also pay for the Phase 1b part as well.

**PILTONSTANY** · 25-10-07, 17:11

Trams are a great part of an integrated travel system that Edinburgh will/does badly need,The line from Newhaven to the Airport should be complememted with a North-South line .

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The South Suburban train line should be opened up asap too.

**wee 162** · 25-10-07, 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibee Kev
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The only person i have heard vigorously defend this is my flatmate who's a civil engineer
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The public transport in Edinburgh as it stands IS NOT THAT BAD! Certainly not as bad as other small cities. The only way to seriously improve it would be to install a comprehensive underground metro system, which is never going to happen. LRT are doing a fine job IMO, is Edinburgh not the only UK city which doesn't have FirstBus running its bus service? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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I think the Edinburgh bus system is very good, but the amount of buses on the road means that it is very difficult to put on any more. If you have a look at Princes St on any evening you'll see it rammed with buses the length of it. They cause gridlock amongst themselves. And buses at that time are hugely overcrowded. I think one tram will be able to fit in triple the number that a full double decker can.

I like the fact that it is going to be an integrated system and you'll be able to use something like a daysaver for both trams and buses.

What I would say is that there aren't enough lines and it doesn't go to enough places with the current plans. But it has to be started somewhere.

**alexi** · 25-10-07, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by PILTONSTANY
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Trams are a great part of an integrated travel system that Edinburgh will/does badly need,The line from Newhaven to the Airport should be complememted with a North-South line .

The South Suburban train line should be opened up asap too.

Is that the route planned that goes through Gorebridge??

**PILTONSTANY** · 25-10-07, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexi
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Is that the route planned that goes through Gorebridge??

Na that's the Waverly line,

This is the route the line takes but it's used for freight just now,would only cost £18m to reopen to passengers

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**alexi** · 25-10-07, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by PILTONSTANY
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Na that's the Waverly line,

This is the route the line takes but it's used for freight just now,would only cost £18m to reopen to passengers

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Ah, cheers. That route looks like a sensible option,18 mill would be a sound investment....which is why itll probably never happen. It would come in handy for me on a Saturday home game though.

Smurf · 25-10-07, 17:45

Why do we always want/expect everything to fail?

I can't wait foir the trams to be up and running. Hopefully just the start..

**PILTONSTANY** · 25-10-07, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Why do we always want/expect everything to fail?

I can't wait foir the trams to be up and running. Hopefully just the start..

Agreed mate,
1st it was we don't want Trams and now it's what's the point in only 1 line?

Things take time and as our city gets bigger i'd expect other lines to be announced in the future.

Trains,Trams and busses is the way forward.

**SG7nil** · 25-10-07, 17:55

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer to have a bus every 20 minutes that can carry 80 people than a tram every hour that can carry 240 people. It's far more convenient to only ever have a 20 munute wait for a bus than a 1 hour wait for a tram (cos lets face it they are unlikely to oversupply vehicles).

I also don't fancy trams for their inflexibility.. Imagine there's a fire in Princes St (as there was a few weeks ago).. all the buses were rerouted along other streets, but you can't do that with trams! So they'd all have to stop running.

A small underground loop that covers all of the city centre would do me, with good integrated surface/underground services connecting in to it. That's the way forward
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**PILTONSTANY** · 25-10-07, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SG7nil
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer to have a bus every 20 minutes that can carry 80 people than a tram every hour that can carry 240 people. It's far more convenient to only ever have a 20 munute wait for a bus than a 1 hour wait for a tram (cos lets face it they are unlikely to oversupply vehicles).

I also don't fancy trams for their inflexibility.. Imagine there's a fire in Princes St (as there was a few weeks ago).. all the buses were rerouted along other streets, but you can't do that with trams! So they'd all have to stop running.

A small underground loop that covers all of the city centre would do me, with good integrated surface/underground services connecting in to it. That's the way forward
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Have a wee look at these

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"It is proposed that an initial frequency of six trams per hour will run across the first phase. This will climb to 12 an hour from St Andrew Square to the foot of Leith Walk."

So we cancel an entire transport plan for Edinburgh incase there's a fire or breakdown
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**alexi** · 25-10-07, 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Why do we always want/expect everything to fail?

I can't wait foir the trams to be up and running. Hopefully just the start..

I think the Parliament fiasco has made a lot of people cynical/apprehensive about any major public spending.

The fact stands that Scotlands transport system is a shambles. We need a train link to Edinburgh Airport,The Waverley line would also be a sound investment.And the South Suburban route would be benefficial.Less talk & more action from our Government is needed.

**hibadelic** · 25-10-07, 18:23

I'm all for the trams. Cleaner (perhaps not environmentally friendly but they don't pump fumes into the air in the city), faster and punctual. Also, no baseball capped schemies sitting upstairs at the back, smoking, sniffing glue and playing tinny tartan techno their mobile phones.

The buses as they stand are not perfectly good btw. LRT's timetable should be nominated for the Pulizer Prize for Fiction IMO.

25-10-07, 07:44	#1
SG7nil Pedantic Fact Hunting Radge Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Where the Chief puts the Sunshine Posts: 2,629 My Mood: Thanks: 141 Thanked 116 Times in 63 Posts Rep Power: 7	Trams for Edinburgh I know this has probably been done to death already on the Bounce, but I heard this morning that the final meeting was taking place today to discuss the proposed tram scheme... Well I have to say that I think that it's possibly a wee bit late to be holding this meeting since the roadworks to facilitate the trams are already well underway and Leith Walk currently looks like it has been shelled by howitzers there's so many holes in the ground! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. What happens if the Scottish Exec decides to cancel the trams.. that's a lot of money and effort already wasted on the scheme... reminds me of the ill fated road pricing scheme that we nearly had foisted on us which was pulled - after much of the infrastructure of To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. s, road narrowing and detection equipment had already been installed! Do we never learn! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

25-10-07, 09:19	#5
Hibee Kev Black & White Army Radge Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Corstorphine Posts: 1,337 My Mood: Thanks: 12 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Rep Power: 6	Re: Trams for Edinburgh The only person i have heard vigorously defend this is my flatmate who's a civil engineer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. The public transport in Edinburgh as it stands IS NOT THAT BAD! Certainly not as bad as other small cities. The only way to seriously improve it would be to install a comprehensive underground metro system, which is never going to happen. LRT are doing a fine job IMO, is Edinburgh not the only UK city which doesn't have FirstBus running its bus service? If it ain't broke, don't fix it! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. __________________ "Life goes by pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." - Ferris Bueller

25-10-07, 16:03	#6
Cuckoo Hill Baby Radge Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Derby Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Rep Power: 0	Re: Trams for Edinburgh Hope the tram meets its costs and doesn't have to be bailed out. The trouble with trams is that they need an awful lot of fare revenue to cover the very heavy capital costs, and for that you need a high population density and an integrated transport system, so that the tram isn't in competition with buses. British cities tend to be lower density than continental cities, but I have no specific knowledge of Edinburgh. Nottingham's tram is usually pretty packed but I don't know if it covers its costs. Too many people fall for the line that trams, because they are electric, don't pollute, whereas electricity generation does of course pollute. Whereabouts in Edinburgh will the tram run?

25-10-07, 17:11	#9
PILTONSTANY Shameless Radge Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Edinburgh's Waterfront Age: 31 Posts: 7,563 Thanks: 4 Thanked 85 Times in 39 Posts Rep Power: 19	Re: Trams for Edinburgh Trams are a great part of an integrated travel system that Edinburgh will/does badly need,The line from Newhaven to the Airport should be complememted with a North-South line . To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. The South Suburban train line should be opened up asap too. __________________ Football in Scotland is ridiculously poor value for money.We dont want to sit down. We dont want to be treated like scum by the stewards. We dont want to eat over-priced reheated stale pies and pay £2 quid for a bit of powder and warm water in a tiny cup. We dont want to sit behind pillars (Well at certain grounds it's ok). We dont want to watch guys who cant control a football. But that's what we get........ My Countdown Is........ Counting down to: Christmas 32 days 0 hours 7 minutes Last edited by PILTONSTANY; 25-10-07 at 18:14.

25-10-07, 17:45	#14
Smurf Away doing some work for a few weeks Join Date: May 2003 Location: Suburbia Age: 35 Posts: 22,572 My Mood: Thanks: 16 Thanked 13 Times in 10 Posts Rep Power: 0	Re: Trams for Edinburgh Why do we always want/expect everything to fail? I can't wait foir the trams to be up and running. Hopefully just the start..

25-10-07, 17:55	#16
SG7nil Pedantic Fact Hunting Radge Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Where the Chief puts the Sunshine Posts: 2,629 My Mood: Thanks: 141 Thanked 116 Times in 63 Posts Rep Power: 7	Re: Trams for Edinburgh I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer to have a bus every 20 minutes that can carry 80 people than a tram every hour that can carry 240 people. It's far more convenient to only ever have a 20 munute wait for a bus than a 1 hour wait for a tram (cos lets face it they are unlikely to oversupply vehicles). I also don't fancy trams for their inflexibility.. Imagine there's a fire in Princes St (as there was a few weeks ago).. all the buses were rerouted along other streets, but you can't do that with trams! So they'd all have to stop running. A small underground loop that covers all of the city centre would do me, with good integrated surface/underground services connecting in to it. That's the way forward To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

25-10-07, 18:23	#19
hibadelic Radge-a-Casblanca Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,427 Thanks: 4 Thanked 42 Times in 19 Posts Rep Power: 16	Re: Trams for Edinburgh I'm all for the trams. Cleaner (perhaps not environmentally friendly but they don't pump fumes into the air in the city), faster and punctual. Also, no baseball capped schemies sitting upstairs at the back, smoking, sniffing glue and playing tinny tartan techno their mobile phones. The buses as they stand are not perfectly good btw. LRT's timetable should be nominated for the Pulizer Prize for Fiction IMO. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. It fills me with joy to see moshers out jogging.