Catholics and Amnesty

[Colr]

The Vatican has urged all Catholics to stop donating money to Amnesty International, accusing the human rights group of promoting abortion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6750887.stm

[Haruki]

And you're surprised why?

The catholic church is a fundamentalist organisation interested in their own power and that alone. I've no idea why Christ walked this rock but I'm fairly sure it wasn't to spawn this power hungry paedophilic shit-bags.

Truth and kindness over religion - Camthebam

[1875]

Originally Posted by camthebam

And you're surprised why?

The catholic church is a fundamentalist organisation interested in their own power and that alone. I've no idea why Christ walked this rock but I'm fairly sure it wasn't to spawn this power hungry paedophilic shit-bags.

Truth and kindness over religion - Camthebam

Deary me, cannae beat a generalisation eh? Must mention my auld mums 'yet discovered' paedophelia next time I see her. Will tell her a guy from Wick said so.

[wee 162]

Originally Posted by Colr

The Vatican has urged all Catholics to stop donating money to Amnesty International, accusing the human rights group of promoting abortion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6750887.stm

This is a fair enough point from the Catholic Church imo.

If they want to object to every single organisation that does not object to abortion in the cases of incest and rape, that's fine. After all that is the position of the Catholic Church.

Maybe after they have shut down Amnesty International they can then turn round and set up their own organisation which objects to things like torture. After all the Catholic Church has had pretty close to 2000 years of practice without objecting to societies which torture their citizens (if the government doing so is committed to Catholicism) so they are in an ideal situation to be experts in setting up an organisation which does.

AFAIC if every single person who agrees with this edict stops donating to AI then I'll be happy to start donating double to stop the organisation being subject to any religions approval.

[1875]

My point was directed at the generalisation from the Wick based person. However if its down to churches stances I think its fair to say, most organsied churches are not 'liberal minded' on this issue. As for torture, where do we begin?

Scotland is a nominally 'protestant' country, what is the position of the COS on abortion and torture? How many churches do they have in Zimbabwe for example? Do they have an established policy on abortion?

[Greenmachine]

Originally Posted by camthebam

And you're surprised why?

The catholic church is a fundamentalist organisation interested in their own power and that alone. I've no idea why Christ walked this rock but I'm fairly sure it wasn't to spawn this power hungry paedophilic shit-bags.

Truth and kindness over religion - Camthebam

2 Million pedos in Scotland alone ??,

you learn something new every day on this forum..

[egb_hibs]

oh dear - bigotry raises it's head again.

AI was started by a catholic, and has had many prominent ones since. the perversion of the abortion issue into one of human rights is therefore what would be clearly recognised elsewhere, I believe, as entryism (not to mention it being as 'fundamentalist' an assertion as i can think of).

But no matter, the same rules don't apply to catholics, and in the inflationary use of language and sweeping indictment that are the hallmark attributes of bigotry everywhere, any attempt to adhere a minimal set of coure values in the face of a hijacking agenda is now 'fundamentalism'.

the fact that we see on this board the prejudices that this society okays, and such histrionics when the ones it deems taboo are breached, just demonstrates how subjective all this is, and how much of the morality 'we don't need a priest to give us' is in fact so utterly 'given'.

sad as feck, but amusing too.

ps cam - are you as happy to make the connection between those pedos and their homosexuality as you are with their priesthood?

[pilrig70]

Originally Posted by Greenmachine

2 Million pedos in Scotland alone ??,

you learn something new every day on this forum..

There's an important diffentiation to be made between individuals who consider themselves Catholic and the organised Roman Catholic Church.

For instance, the latter institutionalised paedophilia in Ireland. The former were the victims of it.

[1875]

Originally Posted by Greenmachine

2 Million pedos in Scotland alone ??,

you learn something new every day on this forum..

I think you will find there are less than 1 million Roman Catholics in Scotland, but I agree with you point.

[Greenmachine]

Originally Posted by 1875

I think you will find there are less than 1 million Roman Catholics in Scotland, but I agree with you point.

Apologies. You are correct.

About 800,000 at the last count.

Blame it on the drink last night ..

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by pilrig70

There's an important diffentiation to be made between individuals who consider themselves Catholic and the organised Roman Catholic Church.

For instance, the latter institutionalised paedophilia in Ireland. The former were the victims of it.

no there's not, the church is made of those baptised into it. your distinction is between the clergy and lay members.

as for the abuse; disgusting and disgraceful and that applies not only to the abusers but those who covered for them.

but it's also sad that it's become used as a political tool, and used by others to fire their bigotry.

one rarely, for example, sees talk of institutionalised paedophilia in the education or care industries. or see have pedo homosexuals as equivalent butts of jokes or all round stereotypes as pedo priests.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by wee 162

This is a fair enough point from the Catholic Church imo.

If they want to object to every single organisation that does not object to abortion in the cases of incest and rape, that's fine. After all that is the position of the Catholic Church.

the objection is to the classification of abortion as a human right - an absurd and doctrinaire position. AI can perform it's mission quite happily without getting into the abortion issue. Your statement here should imho be turned around; not every single organisation needs to get involved with abortion.

Maybe after they have shut down Amnesty International they can then turn round and set up their own organisation which objects to things like torture.

they already have; it's called the church. Oh and amnesty was formed by a catholic.

After all the Catholic Church has had pretty close to 2000 years of practice without objecting to societies which torture their citizens (if the government doing so is committed to Catholicism)

that's not entirely true though is it Al. the inquisition would be under Ai's scrutiny, but that was a long time ago. blood libels aren't a good thing.

so they are in an ideal situation to be experts in setting up an organisation which does.

you sound like a dob Al. wind it in FFS. your going beyond your former critiques and jumping on the bandwagon that seems to be popular here lately.

AFAIC if every single person who agrees with this edict stops donating to AI then I'll be happy to start donating double to stop the organisation being subject to any religions approval.

go for it.

your prejudice appears to be blinding you from the real point; the doctrinaire dogma that is encroaching on amnesty here is actually that of pc, or, if you prefer, human rights fundamentalism. can't you see how this is evolving into a religious-like system, where positions on various unconnected issues are getting absorbed into a connected dogma system?

quite apart from the assertion that abortion is a human right being manifestly absurd, as an issue, abortion does not have a necessary place with amnesty's mission - the insistence on including it, and therebye alienating chunks of it's membership for whom it is no more acceptable than the torture and political oppression which amnesty is supposed to be about, is in fact the type of edict imposing that your purport to object to.

this is one more example of pc fundamentalists picking a fight that the west doesn't really need right now. they'll succeed only in damaging AI and those that might benefit from it's work. Fidel will be pleased.

it's quite remarkable how virulent anti-catholicism, like anti-semitism, has become again these days, so that these issues can be seen by intelligent people in almost the exact opposite way to their true form. i increasingly wonder if we're in our weimar years.

[pilrig70]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

it's quite remarkable how virulent anti-catholicism, like anti-semitism, has become again these days, so that these issues can be seen by intelligent people in almost the exact opposite way to their true form. i increasingly wonder if we're in our weimar years.

I can understand your defensiveness EGB, and I admire the way you defend your faith, but there's another side to this.

You may protest at what you call "militant athiests" but to me thats just a meaningless slogan devoid of all content put out by religious fundamentalists. Humanists and athiests arent militantly organising against any religion. People like Richard Dawkins use only one weapon: the power of reason.

The truth is, humanists and athiests have had enough of fundamentalist Christians, Jews and Muslins screwing up this planet.

Its neither bigoted nor sectarian to challenge, using reason rather than violence, religious dogma. Its neither bigoted nor sectarian to want the state to become completely secular at every level, especially in schools.

Athiests and humanists have had enough of religious fundamentalists brain-washing young children with their static ideologies. Children should be taught to question everything, be independent thinkers, to embrace doubt. Inquiring minds are the most progressive ones. The world over, religions try to block this because it erodes their authority and their dubious moral certainties.

Ask yourself this: Where are the humanists and athiests whipping up hatred and declaring war on other countries? Where are the humanists and athiests preaching bigotry and hate and violence and oppression of women and children? Athiests and humanists dont strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up. Athiests and humanists dont dig out obscure quotes from antiquated scriptures to justify oppression, rape, homophobia, murder and war.

Intelligent people who reject pie-in-sky-when-you-die fairy tales are the best hope this planet has got for a peaceful future. Staying silent about the crimes and carnage done in the name of religions and gods is not an option.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by pilrig70

I can understand your defensiveness EGB, and I admire the way you defend your faith, but there's another side to this.

You may protest at what you call "militant athiests" but to me thats just a meaningless slogan devoid of all content put out by religious fundamentalists. Humanists and athiests arent militantly organising against any religion. People like Richard Dawkins use only one weapon: the power of reason.

The truth is, humanists and athiests have had enough of fundamentalist Christians, Jews and Muslins screwing up this planet.

Its neither bigoted nor sectarian to challenge, using reason rather than violence, religious dogma. Its neither bigoted nor sectarian to want the state to become completely secular at every level, especially in schools.

Athiests and humanists have had enough of religious fundamentalists brain-washing young children with their static ideologies. Children should be taught to question everything, be independent thinkers, to embrace doubt. Inquiring minds are the most progressive ones. The world over, religions try to block this because it erodes their authority and their dubious moral certainties.

Ask yourself this: Where are the humanists and athiests whipping up hatred and declaring war on other countries? Where are the humanists and athiests preaching bigotry and hate and violence and oppression of women and children? Athiests and humanists dont strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up. Athiests and humanists dont dig out obscure quotes from antiquated scriptures to justify oppression, rape, homophobia, murder and war.

Intelligent people who reject pie-in-sky-when-you-die fairy tales are the best hope this planet has got for a peaceful future. Staying silent about the crimes and carnage done in the name of religions and gods is not an option.

what has any of this irrational, ahistorical and bigotted tosh got to do with the imposition of a dogma onto amnesty international?

the bit in bold is hysterical btw, fecking hysterical. you couldn't name a factor that is threatening this planet or the societies that occupy it, where secular systems have not been as bad, and usually much worse, than others.

and as for atheists preaching hate - for starters; on this little forum they're the only ones that do. and as for using reason...

[pilrig70]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

what has any of this irrational, ahistorical and bigotted tosh got to do with the imposition of a dogma onto amnesty international?

the bit in bold is hysterical btw, fecking hysterical. you couldn't name a factor that is threatening this planet or the societies that occupy it, where secular systems have not been as bad, and usually much worse, than others.

and as for atheists preaching hate - for starters; on this little forum they're the only ones that do.

Irrational? Bigoted? Ahistorical? Hysterical?



(Sorry, was laughing there cos thats the univeral trademarks of organised religion).

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by pilrig70

Irrational? Bigoted? Ahistorical? Hysterical?

yes!

Irrational: because it's an emotional rant disconnected from any underlying facts


Bigoted: because it's an a priori hatred that drives all the rest of the aforementioned nickers


Ahistorical: because it ignores the far greater levels of violence perpetrated by avowedly atheistic systems in recent times than any religious system ever, and throughout history the leading role played by secular systems in war, pollution, inequality and so on


Hysterical: because it's jibbering guff

but it's brightened up my evening

[pilrig70]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

yes!

Irrational: because it's an emotional rant disconnected from any underlying facts


Bigoted: because it's an a priori hatred that drives all the rest of the aforementioned nickers


Ahistorical: because it ignores the far greater levels of violence perpetrated by avowedly atheistic systems in recent times than any religious system ever, and throughout history the leading role played by secular systems in war, pollution, inequality and so on


Hysterical: because it's jibbering guff

but it's brightened up my evening

I try ma best

[AndyM]

Originally Posted by Colr

The Vatican has urged all Catholics to stop donating money to Amnesty International, accusing the human rights group of promoting abortion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6750887.stm

They can urge all they want. It won't stop the practising catholic members of my family and indeed many people who have a moral compass (copyright G Brown esq) doing what they wish to do so with their charitable donations. One of my uncles has been a member of Amnesty International for many years and he goes to mass. This will not change his opinion on what he regards as important and I doubt very much that he will be cancelling his membership because the old boys in the vatican have suddenly found something they don't like about it.

IMHO Amnesty is a fine and important organisation which raises many important concerns.
http://www.amnesty.org/

I'm not going down the route on the abortion debate as you and I and egb will just talk ourselves into a coma of boredom again.

[Burbank Lilywhite]

Originally Posted by pilrig70

Ask yourself this: Where are the humanists and athiests whipping up hatred and declaring war on other countries? Where are the humanists and athiests preaching bigotry and hate and violence and oppression of women and children? Athiests and humanists dont strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up. Athiests and humanists dont dig out obscure quotes from antiquated scriptures to justify oppression, rape, homophobia, murder and war.

You should get out more. Trust me on this one, they're doing it in equal numbers. Rape, robbery, assualt, murder are committed everyday by animals for reason other than it feels good, religious dogma has nothing to do with it what so ever.

Here's a good example, explain the role of religion between the bloods and crips here in LA, because I for one would like to know.