On what basis is britain a nation?

[Bartok]

Originally Posted by Johnpoland
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I think the concept of nation ultimately all boils down to choice. By that I mean that each individual identifies with groups, probably beginning with their family, merging into larger and larger groups, depending on socialisation and personal inclination.

I would be prepared to accept, for example, that the Scottish Borders and the people there probably have more in common in a lot of ways with North Northumberland than with, to pick an example, Shetland. However, to a greater or lesser extent, Borderers choose to identify themselves with Scotland. To a large extent, the search for objective definitions is unlikely to succeed, because you could draw everyone living in a series of venn diagrams and the decision on which set you give greatest importance to is down to the individual, albeit often subject to external influence or pressure.

Motivation for choice is likely to change over time. It's been fairly convincingly argued that the "British" identity was strongest when it could be defined as Protestant in opposition to Catholic Europe. WWII maybe saw a Brtish identity based on opposition to Nazism. I suspect Scottish nationalism currently benefits from a sense of opposition to Westminster rule.

Some excellent points there.

I find it interesting that the dialect/language spoken in Coldstream is markedly different from that spoken in Cornhill-on-Tweed, 250 yeards away. Anyone who saw that episode of Billy Kay's programme a few years back must have been struck by this. I still say language is a major factor in determining nationality and nationhood.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by HH

The fact you could easily substitute 'Hibs supporters' with 'Scottish patriots' in that paragraph above demonstrates exactly what I'm trying to say.

This is the key. I don't think it is substitutable in a modern, heterogenuous society, although it would have been more applicable in the past. You hint at this when you acknowledge you don't know how I view 'my' scottishness. In contrast with the harmony which your opinion and mine would share in response to events in the history of Hibs, I might have entirely different views on key things that shaped scotland's history and identity - the covenanters for example, or the jacobite uprisings. I may even end up on the opposite side of a historical argument than you. You or I may also share or not share affiliation with, or respect for, various insitutional things that are or have been core to scottish social identity. And some of this will be influenced by the fact that I am part immigrant stock - i don't know if this is your position or not. This point is relevant as it relates to the issue of whether the nation state can survive enough dilution of the homogenuous identity around which it was originally formed.

In short, I still don't see what this 'scottishness' actually is - this thing one can approach with anything from passion to indifference.

ps - you do get hibs supporters with different views on aspects of the club's history - say the importance they give to our origins. but these people - even the really insecure ones who have a chip on their shoulder re those origins, still have a much larger common interest in the team and it's fortunes. I can't identify that common interest within a concept of scottishness, that overrides the potential differences I discuss above.

[Johnpoland]

Sometimes language follows (or creates) a nation.

Czech nationalists deliberately set out to differentiate Czech from Polish, primarily in the system of spelling, at a point in history when there was dialectal continuity between the two "languages" i.e. "Polish" speakers and "Czech" speakers who lived in neighbouring territories spoke mutually comprehensible dialects, neither of which was necessarily any more comprehensible to other "Polish" or "Czech" speakers.

There were two historical attempts to codify a Slovak language, and the second, more heavily based on the dialect spoken in Central Slovakia rather than the areas bordering Polish or Czech speakers and therefore more "Slovak" is the one which has developed into modern Slovak.

In a relatively small corner of Central Europe, then, you can see how three "nations" and three "languages" were essentially consciously created.

Another more striking example of this is Israel, where a language (Modern Hebrew) had to be more or less invented to allow individuals from all over the world to communicate with each other. You could say the choice to create an Israeli nation led to the need for a language.

[egb_hibs]

I'm not meaning to be snippy, but only DC has been able to name some elements of scottishness - and they're aw deed - other than language, which we got from the english and share with the americans.

i'm no closer to understanding what this thing is meant to be.

[Hampden_Hibby]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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I'm not meaning to be snippy, but only DC has been able to name some elements of scottishness - and they're aw deed - other than language, which we got from the english and share with the americans.

i'm no closer to understanding what this thing is meant to be.

Maybe you're looking for something deeper and more sexy than it actually is. Maybe Scottishness is just good old-fashioned tribalism. Just like the old boy proudly displaying his bowling club badge on his blazer, just like the CCS, just like the goths hanging around Royal Exchange Square in Glasgow. We really need our gangs. We are a herding creature.

Just like Richard Dawkins views religion as a virus, maybe nationhood too is a virus passed from parent to child. Yer only Scottish cos yer Da wisnae French.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby
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Maybe you're looking for something deeper and more sexy than it actually is. Maybe Scottishness is just good old-fashioned tribalism. Just like the old boy proudly displaying his bowling club badge on his blazer, just like the CCS, just like the goths hanging around Royal Exchange Square in Glasgow. We really need our gangs. We are a herding creature.

Just like Richard Dawkins views religion as a virus, maybe nationhood too is a virus passed from parent to child. Yer only Scottish cos yer Da wisnae French.

funnily enough, I considered asking you what you thought Professor Dawkins might think of the nationalist meme. Within the context of Dawkin's worldview, it clearly is one, as much as religion is, and as much as his own motivating delusions are. But enough of that crazy old mullah...

I'm not looking for anything deeper, your argument above is one that I can agree with, but I suspect that feeling of belonging is dissipating with the common identity it is based on. Time will tell. Maybe an opposing identity will provoke a challenge which will cause it either to be reinvigorated, or else to fall apart completely.

[Pilrig]

Originally Posted by Colr
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The states pre-existed the United States. You could hardly say any British are truly indigenous given we are a mix of anglo-saxons, gaels, vikings, normans and other invaders

Considering most of Britain north of the Midlands was uninhabitable prior to 10,000 years ago, of course we are all descendants of immigrants. Just that some of our ancestors lived here a hell of a lot earlier than others did.
Someone wrote recently (and I can't remember who) that if your maternal great-grandma was born in Britain and Ireland, there's a very good chance that you're descended from the early hunter-gatherers who first populated these islands.

[Pilrig]

Originally Posted by Dixie Chicken
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Some excellent points there.

I find it interesting that the dialect/language spoken in Coldstream is markedly different from that spoken in Cornhill-on-Tweed, 250 yeards away. Anyone who saw that episode of Billy Kay's programme a few years back must have been struck by this. I still say language is a major factor in determining nationality and nationhood.

It's a curiosity that the nearer you get to the border with England the broader the Scots accent, (though it's been claimed that Hawick folk speak a form of Chinese). On the other hand, who speaks the most perfect English ? The Gaels of course !