"No mugs in international football anymore"

[hibadelic]

"No mugs in international football anymore" -

does this often heard cliché still ring true?

With recent results such as
England 5 Andorra 0
Scotland 6 Faroes 0
Georgia 6 Faroes 0
San Marino 0 Germany 13

is it time the qualifiers for European Championships / World Cup were revamped?

I think it could be time to look in to a two tier qualification system of some sort.

Thoughts?

[Shearer]

Agreed. Teams like San Marino have apparantly only ever scored 5 goals or something in their history. Why are these teams in it??? They are mere cannon fodder. Faroes come into this bracket too, they are never realistically going to compete.

There should be a mini-qualifiers during the summer between these sort of teams, and if they get through, then at least they've earned their place.

[©stretch]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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"No mugs in international football anymore" -

does this often heard cliché still ring true?

With recent results such as
England 5 Andorra 0
Scotland 6 Faroes 0
Georgia 6 Faroes 0
San Marino 0 Germany 13

is it time the qualifiers for European Championships / World Cup were revamped?

I think it could be time to look in to a two tier qualification system of some sort.

Thoughts?

FIFA are allegedly looking at a two tier system
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Putting the small teams, (as mentioned above) into seperate groups.

[Rep of Ireland Hibee]

Maybe these teams have a right to play against the big teams, its how people in their country get interested in football.

Its the same now in European club football, smaller countries having to play 3 or 4 qualifying rounds before making 1st round proper. I remember games like:

Athlone Town v AC Milan (0-0 in Athlone(and they missed a penalty) and 4-0 in San Siro)

UCD v Everton (0-0 in Goodison Park, and lose 1-0 at home (also think this is the year Everton won the Cup Winners Cup)

Cork City Bayern Munich (2-1 to Bayern in Cork, can't remember away score)

Bohemians v Kaiserslautern (Bohs lost 2-0 in Dublin but won 1-0 in Germany)


Now Irish clubs have to play teams from Macedonia, Azerbajan and Estonia


These games don't attract fans to the games, the big ones do. So to tell the San Marino FA the biggest game they'll have to look forward to from now on is Leichtenstein wouldn't be fair.

These small teams get their results too:

Leichtenstein 0-0 with Ireland
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and drawing 2-2 with Portugal after being 2-0 down

Faroes beating Austria 1-0 just after Austria had played in a world cup

Nothern Ireland beating England & Spain



These are just some top of the head examples that small teams can get results and deserve to play against the big teams

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by Rep of Ireland Hibee
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Maybe these teams have a right to play against the big teams, its how people in their country get interested in football.

I don't think seeing their national team getting humped 0-13 is going to get too many of the 29,000 population of San Marino interested in football. Perhaps playing qualifiers with teams they have a chance against might be more attractive?

In a two tier system they would still get to play against other international teams, they'd just have to become the best of the smaller/worse nations in order to play bigger countries. IMO that would give more of an incentive to improve.

Also, teams like Athlone (or Hibs for that matter) don't get to play AC Milan every year, they have to earn the right.

[Rep of Ireland Hibee]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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I don't think seeing their national team getting humped 0-13 is going to get too many of the 29,000 population of San Marino interested in football. Perhaps playing qualifiers with teams they have a chance against might be more attractive?

In a two tier system they would still get to play against other international teams, they'd just have to become the best of the smaller/worse nations in order to play bigger countries. IMO that would give more of an incentive to improve.

Also, teams like Athlone (or Hibs for that matter) don't get to play AC Milan every year, they have to earn the right.

Good points there Hibadelic. Another one is that the Republic always do crap against these smaller teams
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I was just trying to give another side of the arguement

[Smurf]

A two tier system sounds like a plan with pre qualification stages but wouldn't we (Scotland) fall into such a category?
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[HenryLB]

Originally Posted by Shearer
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Why are these teams in it??? They are mere cannon fodder. Faroes come into this bracket too, they are never realistically going to compete.

European Championships Faroe Islands 2-2 Scotland 07-09-2002

European Championships Faroe Islands 1-1 Scotland 05-06-1999


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[Ewan]

Originally Posted by Shearer
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Agreed. Teams like San Marino have apparantly only ever scored 5 goals or something in their history.

Ture, but oone of them - the quickest goal in international football - was the one that stopped England from going to USA 94 (England needed to win by 7 clear goals - it finshed 7-1
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)

[mr hibs fan]

Lets not forget Lithuania drawing with Italy at the weekend.

I am totally against this sugestion of a two teir system - lets face it, Scotland would be phucked if they introduced that. It's hard enough at the moment with all their seedings and pots - look how far Scotland have fallen, to the point where in the same group for the next round of qualifying we have the World Champions, the World Cup runners up and World Cup Quarter Finalists. The system they have in place at the moment is bad enough as, once you're in a pot, you have no chance of getting out of it - as things are stacked against you from the offset.

Every member country deserves the right to be in there - this two teir system is the brain child of the phucking English who reckon they shouldn't have to qualify for anything, all because they won the world cup in nineteen canteen, and has been jumped on by some dillusional Scots who seem to forget that, in the eyes of FIFA/UEFA, we're utter gash!

[TonySoprano]

San Marino will have made money from TV rights from German TVand a bigger crowd and the local economy would benefit from travelling German supporters. The money they make from these games will be key to their future development.

Look at Turkey, they went from getting 8-0 humpings from England to World cup semi finals in less than 20 years. Not suggesting San Marino will ever do that but they should still be allowed to play the bigger nations. Countries getting told who they are allowed to play based on size is a dangerous route to go down, the 'big' countries of Europe already wield far too much power.

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by TonySoprano
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Countries getting told who they are allowed to play based on size is a dangerous route to go down, the 'big' countries of Europe already wield far too much power.

What about based on shiteness?

[mr hibs fan]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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What about based on shiteness?

Aye why not then

And Hibs don't get into Europe ever cos we never do that well now anyway

And while we're at it, why bother with the Scottish Cup.

And lets get rid of any time thats not in the SPL.... In fact lets get rid of all teams outside the old firm!

And Scotland are doomed to eternally having to play extra qualifying rounds in world cup/euro championship qualifiers before getting put in even harder groups that we'll have no danger of qualifying from (cos France, Italy, Ukraine are clearly not hard enough cos we've beaten Heart of MidLithuania & the Faeroes)
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[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by mr hibs fan
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Aye why not then

And Hibs don't get into Europe ever cos we never do that well now anyway

And while we're at it, why bother with the Scottish Cup.

And lets get rid of any time thats not in the SPL.... In fact lets get rid of all teams outside the old firm!

And Scotland are doomed to eternally having to play extra qualifying rounds in world cup/euro championship qualifiers before getting put in even harder groups that we'll have no danger of qualifying from (cos France, Italy, Ukraine are clearly not hard enough cos we've beaten Heart of MidLithuania & the Faeroes)
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I think you're getting carried away, no-one is saying get rid of teams and not let them play. I was just talking about making a second tier which would ease the number of international games and get rid of meaningless fixtures that produce scorelines like 0-13. I don't think anyone benefits from fixtures like that tbh.

FWIW this already happens in European club competition, we have 3 leagues in Scotland, only the top of the SPL (and SC winners) get to go into European games. If everyone had the same chance we would only have one league in Scotland and SPL teams would go in at round one of the SC along with the junior teams etc.

International teams already have to qualify through their continental groups and it's easier to qualify through some than others. The groups in Europe are already seeded, so it's not a level playing field anyway. A league of the bottom 8 (or whatever) European teams could be arranged with the top couple going on to the next round of qualifiers.

[mr hibs fan]

Originally Posted by hibadelic
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I think you're getting carried away, no-one is saying get rid of teams and not let them play. I was just talking about making a second tier which would ease the number of international games and get rid of meaningless fixtures that produce scorelines like 0-13. I don't think anyone benefits from fixtures like that tbh.

FWIW this already happens in European club competition, we have 3 leagues in Scotland, only the top of the SPL (and SC winners) get to go into European games. If everyone had the same chance we would only have one league in Scotland and SPL teams would go in at round one of the SC along with the junior teams etc.

International teams already have to qualify through their continental groups and it's easier to qualify through some than others. The groups in Europe are already seeded, so it's not a level playing field anyway. A league of the bottom 8 (or whatever) European teams could be arranged with the top couple going on to the next round of qualifiers.

It wasn't a meaningless game - it was a qualifier for a major European Competition.

I presume you think that the Intertoto Cup was a meaningless game?

What about when we beat Livi 7-0 last year? Meaningless game?

What you are effectively saying is get rid of the shyte teams that you don't think deserve to play the big teams, and only make them play the "big" teams if they've jumped through enough hoops to get there.

Your example of European Competition is perfect - how long til you reckon we have a Scottish team that are champions of Europe?

Winning any European competition??

I don't see it happening for a long long time, if ever again, and the reason for this is due to the fact that there are too many teams in the "Champions League", and how many of them have won anything domestically. Liverpool won it a few years back, yet weren't the "Champions" of England - so why should they be allowed to enter it?

As pointed out in another post, games such as these "meaningless" ones are vital for some associations as it bring fans to their games, lets them get TV revenue etc - in European club football the rich are getting richer while the poor go to the wall, and an introduction of a tiered system would only have the same happening in International football.

And as for easing the number of international games.... have you been listening to Five Live the past couple of nights, cos thats what all the fuds keep coming out with on there.

There's not exactly that many International fixtures at present - I think you'll find the "meaningless games" in International football come when the money signs flash up and a friendly match against Brazil is organised in London, rather than letting the players return to their clubs and prepare for their next match. And the friendly's that Engerland have watched over the past couple of years (beat by Australia at Upton Park, beaten by Holland at White Hart Lane etc) - they're meaningless (especially as they lost) because so many players are/were used and so nothing valuable was given to the pundits. Games such as those are the true meaningless games, as they are just that - and worth phuck all.

Fair enough Germany won 13-0, but all that you know of that now is they have another 3points and a better goal difference than somebody else.

And I'll repeat it again, if you actually believe Scotland would not be one of the teams in the second teir then you're having an absolute laugh. We are 4th in a group of what - 6 or 7 teams? And how many groups are there? That puts us pretty far down their rankings in all honesty, and with the seedings system we'll struggle to get into the third pot anytime soon, let alone the actual competiton itself. So why should Italy, the World Champions, have to play some tin pot nation such as Scotland? Why should Ukraine, World Cup Quarter Finalists, have to cross Europe to play a bunch of huddies in some bigotted port city, somewhere north of England? They should, and do, because we are members of UEFA/FIFA and have met their criteria to be accepted as members of their association (unlike some countries) and as such deserve the right to play these teams to qualify for the major competitions, and this is in exactly the same way as San Marino deserve the opportunity to play Germany to qualify for the European Championships.

[wee 162]

If UEFA wanted to get rid of fixture congestion they would have had 14 groups with the winner from each going through rather than 7 with the top 2. They won't do that of course since every national FA prefers 5 or 6 home games for cash generating purposes.

[Shearer]

Originally Posted by HenryLB
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European Championships Faroe Islands 2-2 Scotland 07-09-2002

European Championships Faroe Islands 1-1 Scotland 05-06-1999


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When have they ever even came close to qualifying though?
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[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by mr hibs fan
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It wasn't a meaningless game - it was a qualifier for a major European Competition.

I presume you think that the Intertoto Cup was a meaningless game?

What about when we beat Livi 7-0 last year? Meaningless game?

Meaningless because time and again certain teams have absolutely no chance of beating other teams. Granted they play a lot of games so will occasionally get a draw or score a goal against someone but in general they have slim chance of getting more than a single point in 12 games. They are effectively outclassed by a country with more than 3000 times their population.

Originally Posted by mr hibs fan
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What you are effectively saying is get rid of the shyte teams that you don't think deserve to play the big teams, and only make them play the "big" teams if they've jumped through enough hoops to get there.

I'm saying have a league between the bottom few teams and have a couple progress to the next stage. Isn't that the way countless other competitions work?

Originally Posted by mr hibs fan
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Your example of European Competition is perfect - how long til you reckon we have a Scottish team that are champions of Europe?

Winning any European competition??

I don't see it happening for a long long time, if ever again, and the reason for this is due to the fact that there are too many teams in the "Champions League", and how many of them have won anything domestically. Liverpool won it a few years back, yet weren't the "Champions" of England - so why should they be allowed to enter it?

What's this got to do with the thread?

Originally Posted by mr hibs fan
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As pointed out in another post, games such as these "meaningless" ones are vital for some associations as it bring fans to their games, lets them get TV revenue etc - in European club football the rich are getting richer while the poor go to the wall, and an introduction of a tiered system would only have the same happening in International football.

Presumably all teams in lower leagues in Scotland should be brought up to the SPL to ensure an even spread of revenue.

Originally Posted by mr hibs fan
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And as for easing the number of international games.... have you been listening to Five Live the past couple of nights, cos thats what all the fuds keep coming out with on there.

There's not exactly that many International fixtures at present - I think you'll find the "meaningless games" in International football come when the money signs flash up and a friendly match against Brazil is organised in London, rather than letting the players return to their clubs and prepare for their next match. And the friendly's that Engerland have watched over the past couple of years (beat by Australia at Upton Park, beaten by Holland at White Hart Lane etc) - they're meaningless (especially as they lost) because so many players are/were used and so nothing valuable was given to the pundits. Games such as those are the true meaningless games, as they are just that - and worth phuck all.

Fair enough Germany won 13-0, but all that you know of that now is they have another 3points and a better goal difference than somebody else.

And I'll repeat it again, if you actually believe Scotland would not be one of the teams in the second teir then you're having an absolute laugh. We are 4th in a group of what - 6 or 7 teams? And how many groups are there? That puts us pretty far down their rankings in all honesty, and with the seedings system we'll struggle to get into the third pot anytime soon, let alone the actual competiton itself. So why should Italy, the World Champions, have to play some tin pot nation such as Scotland? Why should Ukraine, World Cup Quarter Finalists, have to cross Europe to play a bunch of huddies in some bigotted port city, somewhere north of England? They should, and do, because we are members of UEFA/FIFA and have met their criteria to be accepted as members of their association (unlike some countries) and as such deserve the right to play these teams to qualify for the major competitions, and this is in exactly the same way as San Marino deserve the opportunity to play Germany to qualify for the European Championships.

Sorry, I'm not one of those fuds who listen to Five Live.

I'd agree with some points there although the suggestion I made was only for the bottom few countries, possibly the bottom 7 or 8 in FIFA rankings ie. the clubs who are truly outclassed on a regular basis. Scotland, even at our lowest trough were far higher than that.