in defence of DOBS

[egb_hibs]

leaving aside their advocacy of a protestantism that people may disagree with, focusing on the dobs objections to catholicism, how do they differ from those of say, 'liberal' jacobins, or commies?

when i read their rants versus those of the others mentioned the only difference i can see is in earthiness of delivery. which i put down to class.

thoughts?

[egb_hibs]

ps I'm thinking of the mainland here, rather than the 6 counties where i'm sure, that like everyone with a strong opinion on anything they're happy to back it up with violence.

[Archie]

What are DOBS?

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Archie

What are DOBS?

Archie, if you're so innocent that you really don't know I couldn't possibly be the one to pop your cherry

[HailHail]

If we're talking current Huns( no pun intended) I think a lot of it will have been passed down from ranting and raving parents and rents who for one reason or another have an axe to grind with 'they taigs' . They also seem incapable of seperating Catholicism from Irishness, all to prevalent in their ignorant misuse of the F word.

People with brains who attack/disagree with catholicism like the jacobins/commies can generally give decent arguments against it or the people at the top of the tree, as it were, while the huns just mump and moan the same shite about beast priests and James II'S successful rearguard action in 1690 near drogheda.
In short, ask your average DOB/hUN why he hates catholics/catholicism he won't be able to give you an intelligent reason.

If i've missed the point here i'm away to my bed

[HailHail]

Originally Posted by Archie

What are DOBS?

Dirty Orange Bstar#s

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

leaving aside their advocacy of a protestantism that people may disagree with, focusing on the dobs objections to catholicism, how do they differ from those of say, 'liberal' jacobins, or commies?

when i read their rants versus those of the others mentioned the only difference i can see is in earthiness of delivery. which i put down to class.

thoughts?

I have a lot of first hand experience of Orangepersons/ Rangers types and one point I would make is that where they have anti-catholic beliefs it tends to come rolled up with pro-British 'empire', anti-immigration, anti-Palestinian views with homophobic and outdated sexist ideas for good measure.

Admittedly, this is often packaged in a very conservative, sometimes churchey, family-values type form but its nature is alwats defensive, insular, always 'anti' rather than 'pro' and a few centuries behind the reality the rest of us occupy.

The reason why they get such a hard time for anti-Catholic views is probably due to the fact that their bitter sloganising and Norn Iron references are in the context of very recent sectarian deaths.

There is also the factor that many of the defensive views outlined above tend to blend into each other, creating one frighteningly stubborn and short-sighted political standpoint.

Perhaps people instinctively react to the overall package of hate as opposed to just the purely anti-Catholic stuff??

[arthurduncan]

went to see the Rev Brian Kennaway and Ian S Wood in the book festival the other day - I did so because I have just read Kennaway's interesting book Orange Order: A Tradition Betrayed. The thesis of the book is that what should essentially be a religious organisation with a political element has become a political organisation with a religious element. The disaster (which had been brewing for years) was Drumcree etc. when LOL leadership did not distance themselves from the UDA etc. nutters and let Seinn Fein/IRA gain the moral high ground as "statesmen" and "peacemakers". This has left mainstream protestantism without a moral centre. Kennaway (who was senior in the Grand Lodge of Ireland) argued again that the Institution is fundamentally about liberty, fraternity, equality - all the principles of the Reformed Church etc. etc. It is an interesting book certainly revealed quite a lot about the "DOBs" that I didn't know about.

he was asked "all this stuff about the reformed church is fine but why all the marching?" - interestingly he said "marching is part of our tradition but what I don't understand is why anyone would want to march where they are not welcome". He also said that the greatest betrayal of Orangeism is the refusal to talk to Seinn Fein/IRA - he believes you should talk to anyone who is made in God's image. I noticed Ian Wilson, Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland, applaud at both points.

FWIW my sense is that Wilson is a decent man who is struggling to keep the extremists at bay and is not really being helped by the Scottish Executive etc. with their assaults on the "bigots on parade". Wilson likes to make the comparison of the celebrated orange clad seikhs marching through the streets of Glasgow and the much hated orange clad defenders of the Reformed Church with their collarettes and bowlers. He feels liberals accept one form of religious expression because its "asian" and exotic, but yet reject the local version. He also points out that the majority of LOL marches in Scotland pass off without incident.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by arthurduncan

went to see the Rev Brian Kennaway and Ian S Wood in the book festival the other day - I did so because I have just read Kennaway's interesting book Orange Order: A Tradition Betrayed. The thesis of the book is that what should essentially be a religious organisation with a political element has become a political organisation with a religious element. The disaster (which had been brewing for years) was Drumcree etc. when LOL leadership did not distance themselves from the UDA etc. nutters and let Seinn Fein/IRA gain the moral high ground as "statesmen" and "peacemakers". This has left mainstream protestantism without a moral centre. Kennaway (who was senior in the Grand Lodge of Ireland) argued again that the Institution is fundamentally about liberty, fraternity, equality - all the principles of the Reformed Church etc. etc. It is an interesting book certainly revealed quite a lot about the "DOBs" that I didn't know about.

he was asked "all this stuff about the reformed church is fine but why all the marching?" - interestingly he said "marching is part of our tradition but what I don't understand is why anyone would want to march where they are not welcome". He also said that the greatest betrayal of Orangeism is the refusal to talk to Seinn Fein/IRA - he believes you should talk to anyone who is made in God's image. I noticed Ian Wilson, Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland, applaud at both points.

FWIW my sense is that Wilson is a decent man who is struggling to keep the extremists at bay and is not really being helped by the Scottish Executive etc. with their assaults on the "bigots on parade". Wilson likes to make the comparison of the celebrated orange clad seikhs marching through the streets of Glasgow and the much hated orange clad defenders of the Reformed Church with their collarettes and bowlers. He feels liberals accept one form of religious expression because its "asian" and exotic, but yet reject the local version. He also points out that the majority of LOL marches in Scotland pass off without incident.

Very interested to hear about the launch - cheers.

There are a large number of people who think like Rev Kennaway within the OO (decent but very conservative churchey types), but they are drowned out by others within the organisation, particularly each July.

I think it was the socialist (probably the only socialialist) NI politician Eamonn McCann who made the point that if SF had ignored the OO the falling membership numbers through the generations would have seen them shrink in any case.

Certainly, if they had taken Rev Kennaway's views on board a long time ago they would be an organisation that more people in NI could respect or at least neutral towards.

But then again, the DUP have never liked to allow Nationalists to have anything that is 'their thing' without constant sniping - and vice versa from SF - so perhaps this is wishful thinking.

[Archie]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

Archie, if you're so innocent that you really don't know I couldn't possibly be the one to pop your cherry

It was an innocent question -thanks to Hail Hail for the answer.

[hibadelic]

Originally Posted by arthurduncan

went to see the Rev Brian Kennaway and Ian S Wood in the book festival the other day

Ian Wood's book "Crimes of Loyalty" is a good read. A well written and interesting history of the UDA. IW is a top Hibby and IIRC a certain Hibees Bounce member gets a dedication/mention at the start.

[Northern Ireland Hibby]

Originally Posted by hibadelic

Ian Wood's book "Crimes of Loyalty" is a good read. A well written and interesting history of the UDA. IW is a top Hibby and IIRC a certain Hibees Bounce member gets a dedication/mention at the start.

Took me a minute but the penny dropped

Feck I can be thick sometimes.

[arthurduncan]

Originally Posted by hibadelic

Ian Wood's book "Crimes of Loyalty" is a good read. A well written and interesting history of the UDA. IW is a top Hibby and IIRC a certain Hibees Bounce member gets a dedication/mention at the start.

He did indeed mention being a season ticket holder at ER - he also mentioned that no decent Hibee could ever be a member of the LOL. If I remember rightly however the Deputy or Assistant Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland is also a season ticket holder at ER. I wonder if he's a member of the Bounce?

Unfortunately Lesley Riddoch had clearly decided that kennaway was the main attraction and poor old Ian was rather sidelined. I plan to read his book based on what little I heard and also his revelation that he was a hibby.