why do the jews get so much stick

[egb_hibs]

christians, fascists, socialists, liberals, muslims

why don't people leave the feckers alone, or at least judge them on the same terms as a'body else.

fecksake.

ps - sorry if some spleen is spilling over which - notwithstanding some of the stuff on here - really belongs on the guardian boards, aka the new stormfront.

if i could be arsed to register...

[Burbank Lilywhite]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

christians, fascists, socialists, liberals, muslims

why don't people leave the feckers alone, or at least judge them on the same terms as a'body else.

Next time your in the states, come to my compound and I'll show you documented proof how 12 of them run the world.

Seriously it is a good point, they are the universal whipping boy from all fronts.

I wonder how much of it is self inflicted though. No other group reminds the world with such verocity how the injustices they have suffered.

Also it appears on the surface that as a group they don't assimilate entirely into the pervailing culture of where they are living. Because their religion defines not only who but what they are (in terms of dress, diet etc) they stand out which makes them easy targets for the bullies. I think you can even make the case for fundamentalist Muslims who are suffering from this distinction as well. You stand out from the crowd, you're a much easier target. In a crowd could you spot the fundamentalist christian, or socialist, or communist? You can't really because those definitions of ones self are internal really.

But you can spot the Hassidic or the Muslim. Their definations of their self are external as well as internal.

[snoots]

They have been made scapegoats far too many times for comfort.

However.

Some of the more militant stuff in the Old Testament has allowed militant fundamentalists to grow within Judaism throughout the ages.

The Old Testament (The Tanahk (SP??) ) itself, isn't all that old (1st Century BC) and was contrived to allow the Hasmoneans to wage Taliban style outrages throughout the area they designated "theirs" - compulsary conversion, death to those who refused ,indoctrination of the population thereafter to become a militant force drinving invaders of "their land". It was a reaction to the Greeks invading the area, was encouraged by the Romans, who were repaid later by uprisings against their subsequent rule, fueled by the self same literalism 100-150 years on.

Like all religions there have been great, peace loving, spiritual versions of Judaism - but when fundamentalism arises within it it becomes, again like other religions, a political outlook rather a spiritual one. It's unfortunate that that political outlook specifies ownership of a piece of land, as specified by the Hasmoneans.

None of that of course excuses the extremes meted out to the human beings who just happened to be Jewish down the ages, it's only an attempt to show how their brand(s) of fundamentalism asks for or deals out trouble, just like the other religions' do.

IMHO people should be allowed space to live in peace without bams breathing all sorts of crap down their throats based on books which are out of date, dangerous when taken literally (rather than allegorically) and are willing to indoctrinate their "flocks/armys' " to carrry out all sorts of outrages.

[fishybeaver]

Cause of they stupid girly curls they have poking out of there hats

[Cullen]

there might be a bit of confusion between orthodox, isrealites, and the other half of the jewish population. I'm jewish, I have alot of jewish friends, and I have never even personally met anyone with all the black clothing and curly sideburns. The idea that the jewish religion diswades assimilation to my eyes is unfounded. A case can however be made that the social differences can cause too much distinction, but i don't see this being any more the case for jews than muslims or hindu's or blacks or japanese necessarily.

about jews reminding the world of past injustices, I just don't see it. But then again I'm exposed to a different media machine. for me it can go unsaid.

If anything in the 'old testament' justifies fundamentalism for jews than it does as well for christians, does it not? and if the oldest remaining book in the world 'isn't that old' then.....well i don't have a witty enough metaphor. i'm not going to argue I know when it actually first appeared, but reasonable historians wouldn't either.

on a more cynical note:
im a jew theres nothing i can do about that...but the old testament is some scary, serious, unsettling shXXX. but I'm finding it very difficult to think of a modern cultural or religeous society that accurately reflects their own scripture in the slightest. everything taken serious about religeon seems to be there strictly to justify different things for people, but its like that for all people, so i wouldn't see this as a jewish problem.

sorry i'm not an expert on anthropology, but i thought you might appreciate my perspective.

was the yiddish reference in the title of this thread intentional?

[HailHail]

I was constantly mistaken for being jewish at many a bus stop in the past . "here mate when's the next bus jew?"

[Hibees-Mad]

Originally Posted by HailHail

I was constantly mistaken for being jewish at many a bus stop in the past . "here mate when's the next bus jew?"

[BurbankHibee]

Originally Posted by Cullen

im a jew theres nothing i can do about that...

Surely you could become an atheist or something ?

[snoots]

Originally Posted by Cullen

If anything in the 'old testament' justifies fundamentalism for jews than it does as well for christians, does it not?

Yes. When it suits them.

and if the oldest remaining book in the world 'isn't that old' then.....well i don't have a witty enough metaphor. i'm not going to argue I know when it actually first appeared, but reasonable historians wouldn't either.

Some of the books are older than the first century BC, they'vr just been compiled together in a way that matches up disperate groups of people to seem as one - with a few interpolations to cement them being brought together. The Isrealites, The Hebrews and the Judeans aren't necessarily all the same people, but have been prestented as such in the OT. El, Yahweh and a few others names given to "God" - shows this.

im a jew theres nothing i can do about that...but the old testament is some scary, serious, unsettling shXXX. but I'm finding it very difficult to think of a modern cultural or religeous society that accurately reflects their own scripture in the slightest.

It's those cultures attempting to do so who cause the bother.

everything taken serious about religeon seems to be there strictly to justify different things for people, but its like that for all people, so i wouldn't see this as a jewish problem.

It's not it's a Muslim problem and a Christian problem as well - e.g. Islam's claim on Jersusalem stems from a story in the Koran in which Muhammed flies to that City on a winged horse to commune with Allah - it's really a political fairy story to allow the Muslims a claim to a strategic city, based on faith in a book.

sorry i'm not an expert on anthropology, but i thought you might appreciate my perspective.

was the yiddish reference in the title of this thread intentional?[/quote]

[Cullen]

Originally Posted by BurbankHibee

Surely you could become an atheist or something ?

its really funny you said that. i didn't realize how i myself was blurring the line between religion and race. I'd have to submit that there are hereditary trates associated with jewish people that can separate them from other people. I'd have to relate this (loosely) to when you see an indian person that they are most likely a hindu, or their family had been.

I'd attribute this mainly to the unattractiveness of the religion. Christians are converted left and right but few people know anyone who converted to judaism. my father did, but he did it to marry my mother and i consider that the most common reason for such a conversion...resulting in offspring (me) that still have some "jewish" traits.

as far as my personal beliefs- i see atheism as just as convenient as any religion... i'm in the 'i don't know' or acceptance pool. some people call me a nihilist, but i don't believe in nihilsm. my brother and i have a saying....'I'm a jew, but I'm not jewish." but i'm always proud of my background...S.

[Cullen]

Quote:
im a jew theres nothing i can do about that...but the old testament is some scary, serious, unsettling shXXX. but I'm finding it very difficult to think of a modern cultural or religeous society that accurately reflects their own scripture in the slightest.


It's those cultures attempting to do so who cause the bother.

When i made this statment I had meant that people who consider themselves fundamentalists are in fact not at all exercising what their scripture says...they justify things from bizzaire angles. For instance the first thing a jewish or christian fundamentalist might do is violate the first comandment...which i have yet to fathom. (i'm not trying to open the debate either). I read the Koran a few years ago and many of the actions of the taliban violate its teachings.

it seems the people think they are reflecting the teachings of god /allah/ mohammad, but when you look at the big picture you see the few people manipulating them have such obvious agendas / personal issues. I'm scared to be an american for the same reasons. i see this religious manipulation similar to the manipulation of middle america by fat rich bastards. but i feel this goes without saying...sorry for saying.

But you make a good point. there are many things in these books that people follow 100% that are obsolete / insane. To save my neck I'll refrain from posing examples.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

christians, fascists, socialists, liberals, muslims

why don't people leave the feckers alone, or at least judge them on the same terms as a'body else.

fecksake.

ps - sorry if some spleen is spilling over which - notwithstanding some of the stuff on here - really belongs on the guardian boards, aka the new stormfront.

if i could be arsed to register...

They've been shat on for centuries. In England Edward the 1st (remember him - the biggest shitebag in history - had them all thrown out the country in the 13th Century, before taking out his personality disorder on Wales and Ireland and attempting to in Scotland).

Doesn't excuse what they are doing in Israel with US support, though.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by snoots

Like all religions there have been great, peace loving, spiritual versions ..............but when fundamentalism arises within it it becomes, again like other religions, a political outlook rather a spiritual one. It's unfortunate that that political outlook specifies ownership of a piece of land, as specified by the Hasmoneans.


IMHO people should be allowed space to live in peace without bams breathing all sorts of crap down their throats based on books which are out of date, dangerous when taken literally (rather than allegorically) and are willing to indoctrinate their "flocks/armys' " to carrry out all sorts of outrages.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Burbank Lilywhite

Next time your in the states, come to my compound and I'll show you documented proof how 12 of them run the world.

Seriously it is a good point, they are the universal whipping boy from all fronts.

I wonder how much of it is self inflicted though. No other group reminds the world with such verocity how the injustices they have suffered.

Also it appears on the surface that as a group they don't assimilate entirely into the pervailing culture of where they are living. Because their religion defines not only who but what they are (in terms of dress, diet etc) they stand out which makes them easy targets for the bullies. I think you can even make the case for fundamentalist Muslims who are suffering from this distinction as well. You stand out from the crowd, you're a much easier target. In a crowd could you spot the fundamentalist christian, or socialist, or communist? You can't really because those definitions of ones self are internal really.

But you can spot the Hassidic or the Muslim. Their definations of their self are external as well as internal.

There are plenty of secular jews and they get the same hatred as the hassidim.

I think more than anything they were the original 'other', in large part a product of christian demonisation, but also simply cos back in the day europe wasn't full of waves of immigration from the indian subcontinent, etc etc. I kind of suspect that were it so, these other groups would have got it just as tight.

consider the breadth of things they've been scapegoated for:

by christians - christ killers
by fascists - manipulators of both bolshevism and capitalism
by national socialists - bolshevism, capitalism and corrupting european bloodlines
by socialists - reponsible for capitalism
by liberals - bolshevism, judea-christianity, (and plain old racism in the good old eugenics glory days) and these days, by left-liberals, for capitalism too
by muslims - for israeal and capitalism

in other words, their 'other' status makes them a blank canvas for scapegoat politics.

it is probably the case that they have been disproporionately represented in some areas - though nothing like was exaggeration twists it into - but that's again explainable by the adaptability and nous as constant outsider needs to evolve, as well as the intellectual heritage beqeauthed by their historical religion.

[Archie]

Not really related, but I was reading an interview with Maureen Lipman who referred to Jewish people who opposed Israel's actions in Lebanon as 'self hating'. Is this similar to nationalsts who refer to Scots who don't vote for independence as 'craven wretches' etc?

[Colr]

Originally Posted by Archie

Not really related, but I was reading an interview with Maureen Lipman who referred to Jewish people who opposed Israel's actions in Lebanon as 'self hating'. Is this similar to nationalsts who refer to Scots who don't vote for independence as 'craven wretches' etc?

[HailHail]

Originally Posted by Colr

They've been shat on for centuries. In England Edward the 1st (remember him - the biggest shitebag in history - had them all thrown out the country in the 13th Century, before taking out his personality disorder on Wales and Ireland and attempting to in Scotland).

Doesn't excuse what they are doing in Israel with US support, though.

Thats a chilling episode isn't it Col. Before expulsion Edward made them wear the star of david in public. over 700 years before you know who. Kicked them out under the pretence of their religion and eradicating 'blasphemous' money lending when in truth he and his exchequer and nobles had borrowed nearly every available penny the jews had ,so kicking them out meant he didn't have to pay it back ,and was able to use some of the cash for the welsh wars and castle building.
Don't think the jews were allowed back until Cromwell's time, by which time society's scapegoats were now the catholics.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by Archie

Not really related, but I was reading an interview with Maureen Lipman who referred to Jewish people who opposed Israel's actions in Lebanon as 'self hating'. Is this similar to nationalsts who refer to Scots who don't vote for independence as 'craven wretches' etc?

i'd say its closer to balanced people pointing out the self-hatred at the core of much bourgeoisie left opinion

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by HailHail

he and his exchequer and nobles had borrowed nearly every available penny the jews had so kicking them out meant he didn't have to pay it back and was able to use some of the cash for the welsh wars and castle building.

a tried and tested stunt that one, which was a key element of the spanish inquisition and indeed, the dissolution of the templars.

do you think it'd work today?

i'm off to try and accuse the VISAcard people of heresy.

I'll keep you posted as to how I get on. Maybe in the meantime you could collect some kindling

[HailHail]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

a tried and tested stunt that one, which was a key element of the spanish inquisition and indeed, the dissolution of the templars.

do you think it'd work today?

i'm off to try and accuse the VISAcard people of heresy.

I'll keep you posted as to how I get on. Maybe in the meantime you could collect some kindling

As long the first against the wall are halifax/BOS advertising people (nippy songs)
I'd forgotten about the suffering non 'converso' jews suffered in Spain. With no evidence at all I'd like to speculate that the enormous flow of gold from the new world to spain was as much to blame as religous differences was. If the Spanish crown borrowed like Edward did from the same sources to finance it's initial expeditions.