Israel/ Palestine

[wee 162]

What would be the ideal solution in your opinion? I'm not talking about what is possible, but just what would happen in an ideal world.

There's a follow up point to this, so I'm going to close the poll after a couple of days and then reveal what it is.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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What would be the ideal solution in your opinion? I'm not talking about what is possible, but just what would happen in an ideal world.

There's a follow up point to this, so I'm going to close the poll after a couple of days and then reveal what it is.

Ideal world it would be a secular state. In an ideal world the entire planet would be one secular state..

Only recently did i discover that in Israel there are Jews and Arabs living side by side in absolute harmony - so it is possible.

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Ideal world it would be a secular state. In an ideal world the entire planet would be one secular state..

Only recently did i discover that in Israel there are Jews and Arabs living side by side in absolute harmony - so it is possible.

agree on the secular state but its a long way off realistic - 2 state solution with 1967 borders or thereabouts is more likely...

I dont think you can describe the arab israelis as living in perfect harmony with their jewish neighbours however - that imo is laughable (sorry to say)

[egb_hibs]

I am in favour of a two state solution though I am not familiar enough with the details to comment on division of territory. Unfortunately I think the secular state option is unworkable. First off, I must mention that I think 'secular state' is a misnomer, and that reflects the problem - Israel currently is a secular state, but if it introduced universal suffrage (which I think is your point Al?) it would be unlikely to remain one for much longer.

We would in fact see one of the worst backlashes against a dominant minority (see my thread about the problems with exporting liberal democracy) and the jewish population would get pumped big time. Understandably, the turkey's are never going to strive to bring about that particular xmas.

The palestinians are the victims of a manifest injustice, and this must be addressed. But that doesn't suggest to me that an equally damaging solution is the answer. Nor incidentally does it excuse non-palestinian islamic states making this into a cause celebre, not least when they treat their own palestinian refugees no better than the israelis at their worst.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by theselkie
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I dont think you can describe the arab israelis as living in perfect harmony with their jewish neighbours however - that imo is laughable (sorry to say)

on what evidence? they may not all be strumming kumbyah together, but there is certainly peaceful coexistence in places.

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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on what evidence? they may not all be strumming kumbyah together, but there is certainly peaceful coexistence in places.

Arabs living in Israel have been affected by a mixture of discriminatory policies and glass ceilings which have prevented them from fully integrating and claiming the same rights as held by Jewish citizens. Arab israelis appear to have difficulty with their identity (perhaps understandably) in a state that defines iself through its jewishness

examples?

its illegal for an arab party (or any political movement within israel) to negate the existance of israel as a state of the jewish people

arabs are severly under-represented in terms of economic, social, civil and political life in israel - it appear to be improving but retained within the society is I feel a two tier structure - jews and arabs

witness the arab israeli media/commentators during the intifida and the recent invasion of lebanon - they tend to reflect wider arab and palestinian opinion rather than that of israel - not a sign of harmonised living - very similar to palestinian opinion.

The security system in israel has resulted in arabs being treated almost as the enemy within, while they may be now accorded (since the 90s) what could be termed equal rights (and that is debatable) under israeli law its without question that they suffer de-facto discrimination - cant join the army, much lower social class in comparison, access to land and planning approval much restricted, segregated education with zionist history curriculum only....could go on but its very dry and you probably know all this anyway. i do remember a documentary on the children of israel/palestine shown some years ago called promises - have yuo seen it - through interviews with children from all sides of society aged 12 or so it showed the human side of the situation very well, the arab israeli child had deep founded fears and suspicions of the israelis even at that age and there was no mixing at all really - things have maybe improved on that front but there is still a long way to go and the current political climate will prove less than helpful on that front i fear.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by theselkie
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I dont think you can describe the arab israelis as living in perfect harmony with their jewish neighbours however - that imo is laughable (sorry to say)

Yes they do. Just as many Protestants and Roman Catholics live in perfect harmony in Northern Ireland..

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Yes they do. Just as many Protestants and Roman Catholics live in perfect harmony in Northern Ireland..

am not saying there arent examples Smurf - just that between the 2 peoples there isnt harmony see reasons why listed above - what do you base your seemingly contrary opinion on?

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by theselkie
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am not saying there arent examples Smurf - just that between the 2 peoples there isnt harmony see reasons why listed above - what do you base your seemingly contrary opinion on?

All i said was that 'there are Jews and Arabs living side by side in absolute harmony' and you described that as 'laughable'. It's not because there are Jews and Arabs living in perfect harmony in Israel. The recent conflicts have put these relationships under tremendous strain obviously. I recently watched a documentary on BBC of Jews going to their neighbourhood Arab Bakers... Tremendous, maybe there is hope i thought..

I don't dispute your other points as IMO your correct.

[egb_hibs]

why is their so much animosity against the jews these days.

some of their deplorable actions notwithstanding, they hardly compare with the north koreans, the russians in chechnya, most of their arab neighbours - and yet they seem to attract disproportionate coverage.

beats me.

[HailHail]

The two religions seem to have co existed in the area reasonably well for the most part, with the exception of the crusades period and since the new israel was formed. Strange. Who's to blame?

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by HailHail
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The two religions seem to have co existed in the area reasonably well for the most part, with the exception of the crusades period and since the new israel was formed. Strange. Who's to blame?

the USA no doubt.

[HailHail]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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the USA no doubt.

was pleasantly surprising when hollywood didn't claim that america won in 'kingdom of heaven' right enough
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[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by HailHail
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was pleasantly surprising when hollywood didn't claim that america won in 'kingdom of heaven' right enough
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are you kidding fella?
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[snoots]

An education programme to get rid the fundamentalist/literalist beliefs within both religions involved would be a good part to include in any solution.

[HailHail]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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are you kidding fella?
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sort of dude, perhaps it does have a kind of hidden message, a positive one about how peace could be achieved in the region today . (I'm not talking a re-run of Hattin though
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[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by snoots
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An education programme to get rid the fundamentalist/literalist beliefs within both religions involved would be a good part to include in any solution.

Channel 4 recently screened a fascinating documentary called Juddah and Mohammed. This followed the lives of two 15 year olds, an israei jew and palestinian arab. The film was made by seperate israeli and palestinian production teams who followed the respective boys. The two teams then had collective editorial control over the finished product. This was quite good in achieving a semblance of objectivity.

Anyway, how does this relate to your point? Well, a lot of the footage featured the boys at their respective schools, with illuminating results. In Juddah's class discussion of the political, a secular liberal tone familiar to ourselves was in evidence; the teacher taking to task class hotheads who were dehumanising palestinians and advocating draconian measures against them.

Meanwhile, in Mohammed's school - school plays were based on 'martyrdom operations' and when Mohammed got huckled for throwing stones at some soldiers he was feted by the teaching staff, presented by them to assembled pupils as a great hero in ther tradition of some former pupil who had successfully achieved martyrdom.

As I say, illuminating.

Incidentally, neither boy appeared particularly religious - Juddah in particular. Prejudices seemed, if anything, to be more racial.

[wee 162]

Thanks folks.

Those who favoured a secular state are in total agreement with the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has stated that this is his preferred solution for Israel/ Palestine.

I'm also interested to see (in an obviously statistically insignificant sample size) that 22 of 23 people do not favour what the "Road map" proposes as a solution.

[HenryLB]

Originally Posted by wee 162
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Thanks folks.

Those who favoured a secular state are in total agreement with the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has stated that this is his preferred solution for Israel/ Palestine.

I'm also interested to see (in an obviously statistically insignificant sample size) that 22 of 23 people do not favour what the "Road map" proposes as a solution.

You did rig it a bit though. In an ideal world I'd be going out with Scarlet Johansson and playing for Hibs, but I can't see it somehow.