Is an excessively swollen public sector anti-democratic

[egb_hibs]

Read something recently that pointed out IIRC that almost half the electorate in scotland is employed in the public sector.

This surely introduces the danger that the govt and public sector employees can form a sort of cartel, where returning a big govt party ensures that ones working environment is likely to benefit. That big govt party can also keep swelling the ranks of it's supporters by creating more public sector jobs.

Surely this has the potential to threaten democracy, much more directly than any perceived influence from 'business'?

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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Read something recently that pointed out IIRC that almost half the electorate in scotland is employed in the public sector.

This surely introduces the danger that the govt and public sector employees can form a sort of cartel, where returning a big govt party ensures that ones working environment is likely to benefit. That big govt party can also keep swelling the ranks of it's supporters by creating more public sector jobs.

Surely this has the potential to threaten democracy, much more directly than any perceived influence from 'business'?

I don't think the old school Soviet economies had as many public sector employees as we have in Scotland today..

And in an Independent Scotland my fear is that it would grow further still. Until we go bust obviously..

[part/time supporter]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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I don't think the old school Soviet economies had as many public sector employees as we have in Scotland today..

And in an Independent Scotland my fear is that it would grow further still. Until we go bust obviously..

I don't see what you're worrying about, considering that the bloated public sector is most likely to vote for Labour.

[Archie]

It used to be an argument against giving council house tenants the right to vote as they could then vote a party in that would keep down rents.

Actually it's pretty fanciful, with some obvious reasons being:
- the public sector is not homogenious - medical consultants and bin men may not share common interests
- assumes that public sector workers are happy to pay high taxes - not a given
- is based on a causality whereby voters assume big government equals more jobs - no evidence for this
- beyond voting there would be little power, whereas business can withdraw capital at any time.

To list just a few.

I'm assuming you want a smaller public sector rather than suspending public sector workers right to vote?

[arthurduncan]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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Read something recently that pointed out IIRC that almost half the electorate in scotland is employed in the public sector.

This surely introduces the danger that the govt and public sector employees can form a sort of cartel, where returning a big govt party ensures that ones working environment is likely to benefit. That big govt party can also keep swelling the ranks of it's supporters by creating more public sector jobs.

Surely this has the potential to threaten democracy, much more directly than any perceived influence from 'business'?

You're clearly bored - not sure if you've ever worked in the "public sector" but the chances of doctors, nurses, teachers, binmen, pensions clerks, the polis etc. etc. all "gangin up" (even unconsciously) for any cause is utter nonsense. There is a vastly bigger difference between a doctor and a pensions clerk than between that pension clerk and an admin assistant in Standard Life. Since most of the above even have different pension schemes, I really cannot see what would draw them together to form a "cartel" - one option would be threat of redundancy but can you really see any party advocating massive job loses among police, teachers, nurses etc. Even threat to 80000 administrative "civil servants" barely raised a murmur - I seem to remember a few on here saying it was a good thing. Na, next question
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[arthurduncan]

Originally Posted by Archie
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It used to be an argument against giving council house tenants the right to vote as they could then vote a party in that would keep down rents.

Actually it's pretty fanciful, with some obvious reasons being:
- the public sector is not homogenious - medical consultants and bin men may not share common interests
- assumes that public sector workers are happy to pay high taxes - not a given
- is based on a causality whereby voters assume big government equals more jobs - no evidence for this
- beyond voting there would be little power, whereas busines can withdraw capital at any time.

To list just a few.

I'm assuming you want a smaller public sector rather than suspending public sector workers right to vote?

Agree obviously, just posted similar

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by part/time supporter
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I don't see what you're worrying about, considering that the bloated public sector is most likely to vote for Labour.

Sorry? What's your point?
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[Smurf]

Originally Posted by arthurduncan
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Na, next question
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The consequences of this growth in the public sector should be of concern to us all..

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[Archie]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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The consequences of this growth in the public sector should be of concern to us all..

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Do you mean public sector workers or just public spending as a whole?

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Archie
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Do you mean public sector workers or just public spending as a whole?

Public spending and public sector workers. IMO it's out of control. Obviously we need frontline public sector workers in Health, Education, Social Services etc etc but it seems to me there's been a hell of a growth in Public Sector Scotland with no obvious tangible benefit to us..

[TonySoprano]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Public spending and public sector workers. IMO it's out of control. Obviously we need frontline public sector workers in Health, Education, Social Services etc etc but it seems to me there's been a hell of a growth in Public Sector Scotland with no obvious tangible benefit to us..

Correction, no obvious tangible benefit to you. As a civil servant i'm enjoying the massive, unearned, salary and benefits that the Public sector has brought to me.

[Archie]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Public spending and public sector workers. IMO it's out of control. Obviously we need frontline public sector workers in Health, Education, Social Services etc etc but it seems to me there's been a hell of a growth in Public Sector Scotland with no obvious tangible benefit to us..

Why does public spending not help business? Surely through public works and all those funded by public works spending dosh there should be huge benefits for the private sector?

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Archie
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Why does public spending not help business? Surely through public works and all those funded by public works spending dosh there should be huge benefits for the private sector?

It's the private sector that pays for the public sector - Lock, Stock & Barrell.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by arthurduncan
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You're clearly bored - not sure if you've ever worked in the "public sector" but the chances of doctors, nurses, teachers, binmen, pensions clerks, the polis etc. etc. all "gangin up" (even unconsciously) for any cause is utter nonsense. There is a vastly bigger difference between a doctor and a pensions clerk than between that pension clerk and an admin assistant in Standard Life. Since most of the above even have different pension schemes, I really cannot see what would draw them together to form a "cartel" - one option would be threat of redundancy but can you really see any party advocating massive job loses among police, teachers, nurses etc. Even threat to 80000 administrative "civil servants" barely raised a murmur - I seem to remember a few on here saying it was a good thing. Na, next question
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I suspect that for every doctor there's a 100 bureacratic clerks fella.

it's the latter i'm thinking of. after all, there is, always has been and always will be, a need for doctors.

[Bartok]

Originally Posted by part/time supporter
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I don't see what you're worrying about, considering that the bloated public sector is most likely to vote for Labour.

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It's all their fault, obviously.
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[arthurduncan]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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I suspect that for every doctor there's a 100 bureacratic clerks fella.

it's the latter i'm thinking of. after all, there is, always has been and always will be, a need for doctors.

I find this a bit of a myth - sure there are a 100 clerks for every doctor - sure things could be done better and more efficiently - Brown has tried to sack near 100k of the little fellas, only to employ almost as many more as he realised the little fellas actually do something. I have always wondered why it is so difficult to understand why processing a benefits form is an important though mind numbing job - obviously we can look to streamline the forms etc., but that only takes us so far - what next? sack all government clerks? OK - no benefits, no tax, no grants, no funding, basically no nothing.

Recently the SNP have indicated they plan to slash the size of the Executive - looking around that organisation I see quite a bit of poor performance (not much different from when I worked in M&S) but very little waste in terms of unnecessary posts. My team are working flat out to deliver their objectives, we could do it more efficiently but if even one of us was "slashed" we'd struggle - then the people who very directly benefit from what we do would no longer benefit either at all or certainly less so.

[part/time supporter]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Sorry? What's your point?
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Labour is most likely to protect (if not expand) the public sector. Therefore if you work in the public sector, it's in your self interest to vote for Labour.

It's the same point that egb is making, without naming any names.

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Have Dave and young George looked at the map? In regions where everyone votes Labour, huge amounts of public money are shovelled at them. Where people vote Tory, the amounts are rarely two thirds as much. Young George won't dare talk of cutting handouts to Labour voters because it means sacking hundreds of thousands of useless people, doing socially unproductive and pointless jobs, and making up Gordon Brown's client state. Instead of learning a valuable lesson from Mr Brown - that a party's own people should be bribed first - young George prefers to maintain the status quo, and offer to carry on bribing Labour's supporters exclusively.

A bit harsh, but it does reflect the facts.

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by part/time supporter
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Labour is most likely to protect (if not expand) the public sector. Therefore if you work in the public sector, it's in your self interest to vote for Labour.

It's the same point that egb is making, without naming any names.

I understand all of that..
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But you said i shouldn't be worrying..?
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[Colr]

Originally Posted by egb_hibs
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Read something recently that pointed out IIRC that almost half the electorate in scotland is employed in the public sector.

This surely introduces the danger that the govt and public sector employees can form a sort of cartel, where returning a big govt party ensures that ones working environment is likely to benefit. That big govt party can also keep swelling the ranks of it's supporters by creating more public sector jobs.

Surely this has the potential to threaten democracy, much more directly than any perceived influence from 'business'?

Crowds out the private sector.

I remember the price difference quoted for laying carpet when I worked in the public sector. Private company £18/m2 - Council's building and works - £55/m2. Guess where the order was placed?

[part/time supporter]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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But you said i shouldn't be worrying..?
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It's the only thing that will stop Labour getting booted out at the next elections (in Scotland and UK).

Unless you want Labour to be booted out at the next elections?


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