Gaelic Education

[Colr]

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Old Woodside is quite a big school. There must be quite a lot of demand.

[Hibbie0762]

Originally Posted by Colr
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Old Woodside is quite a big school. There must be quite a lot of demand.

Aye, historically the Weedgies have a long tradition of speaking Gaelic as their first language of course. As opposed to further north, where Scotland's remainining 60,000 or so Gaelic speakers actually live. This is possibly a facility for the middle class Torquils and Hermiones from the East End of Glasgow whose parents think Gaelic is a cool thing to do.

Instead of teaching Scots children to speak a more or less dead language which historically a majority of Scots have never spoken anyway, a more outward policy of teaching useful modern languages such as French, Spanish or even Arabic might be preferable. Or Polish, as half of Poland currently appears to be living here.
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But of course the Nats wouldny like that.

[Smurf]

Anyone know how much is spent per head on a child given a gaelic education and one that is not?

Pandering nationalist nonsense.

[Colr]

The school itself was closed and merged with Hillhead under the rationalisation programme which preceeded the big PFI project. They merged them in Woodside first whilst Hillhead was refurbed then moved them over to the West End. There was some local opposition in Finnieston to this but Hillhead is a good school and many were happy enough for their kids to go there.

The site was to be sold off for housing but the Council decided to hold onto the sites – despite a few being quite valuable. It’s a good location as its very near both east-west rail lines and a longer walk from the tube. Its also close the Partick where many Gaels live (Park Bar etc..).

Would be interesting to know if it’s the only secondary school run by the Council or if its part of the PFI that all the others are run by – the lot that took over after MacAveety left were not so fond of PFI, I think.


Must have a capacity of 600 - 800.

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Anyone know how much is spent per head on a child given a gaelic education and one that is not?

Pandering nationalist nonsense.

Oh dear oh dear kenny and 0762. I would not link support for the language just with the SNP, there are folk in your own party, not least Brian Wilson who have ben at the forefront of the gaelic revival.

Revival is a good word because that is exactly what is happening. Yes there is an issue with older speakers dying off but there has been an explosion in the numbers attending gaelic medium units.


The language is an important part of the heritage of Scotland and part of everyday life to many in the islands in particular.

Lose the language and Scotland loses part of its soul, part of its identity.

I am slightly surprised at your question of how much is spent on each child. I could be tempted to use the famous quote about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing but I am too much of a gentleman.
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I live on Skye part-time and I am glad to say with my wife coming from a gaelic speaking family she is re-learning the language whilst i have a son at Glasgow university who hopes to become a gaelic teacher.

From the central belt with island roots.

My last point is that there is considerable evidence that childrenv who grow up bi-lingual have a natural apptitude for learning other languages.

[pilrig70]

Originally Posted by Smurf
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Anyone know how much is spent per head on a child given a gaelic education and one that is not?

Pandering nationalist nonsense.

Only in Scotland would people queue up to knock the teaching of one of our indigenous languages.

Pathetic.


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[Colr]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs
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Oh dear oh dear kenny and 0762. I would not link support for the language just with the SNP, there are folk in your own party, not least Brian Wilson who have ben at the forefront of the gaelic revival.

Revival is a good word because that is exactly what is happening. Yes there is an issue with older speakers dying off but there has been an explosion in the numbers attending gaelic medium units.


The language is an important part of the heritage of Scotland and part of everyday life to many in the islands in particular.

Lose the language and Scotland loses part of its soul, part of its identity.

I am slightly surprised at your question of how much is spent on each child. I could be tempted to use the famous quote about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing but I am too much of a gentleman.
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I live on Skye part-time and I am glad to say with my wife coming from a gaelic speaking family she is re-learning the language whilst i have a son at Glasgow university who hopes to become a gaelic teacher.

From the central belt with island roots.

My last point is that there is considerable evidence that childrenv who grow up bi-lingual have a natural apptitude for learning other languages.

I guess this issue is linked to visions for state education. Should there be a one size fits all approach or should diversity be catered for including Catholics, Muslims, Gaels, Eastern Europeans, working parents.

All part of a wider debate which would be useful. Often decends into self interest though.

[enzo]

Originally Posted by Hibbie0762
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Aye, historically the Weedgies have a long tradition of speaking Gaelic as their first language of course. As opposed to further north, where Scotland's remainining 60,000 or so Gaelic speakers actually live. This is possibly a facility for the middle class Torquils and Hermiones from the East End of Glasgow whose parents think Gaelic is a cool thing to do.

Instead of teaching Scots children to speak a more or less dead language which historically a majority of Scots have never spoken anyway, a more outward policy of teaching useful modern languages such as French, Spanish or even Arabic might be preferable. Or Polish, as half of Poland currently appears to be living here.
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But of course the Nats wouldny like that.

I am Italian and I want to learn Gaelic. It is not most the useful language of the world but it is in danger of dying and so when I come to Scotland next year I will start to learn it. I know it is in the highlands it is spoken but it is part of Scottishness as my dad says (he is Scottish) and I am interested in it. But my name is not Torquil.

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by Colr
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I guess this issue is linked to visions for state education. Should there be a one size fits all approach or should diversity be catered for including Catholics, Muslims, Gaels, Eastern Europeans, working parents.

All part of a wider debate which would be useful. Often decends into self interest though.

It is a big topic. However the issue of language is one that should be inclussive. It is a historic language of Scotland and all shoud have the right to participate. Religion is different in as much as it can be exclussive. For me the proviso should be that religious instruction should be given in all religions and that education should respect all faiths.

[Colr]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs
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It is a big topic. However the issue of language is one that should be inclussive. It is a historic language of Scotland and all shoud have the right to participate. Religion is different in as much as it can be exclussive. For me the proviso should be that religious instruction should be given in all religions and that education should respect all faiths.

Ca't say I agree that language is inclusive and religeon inclusive - they both include those who participate.

That aside, you illustrate my point that if we have a diverse and responsive education system which responds to society then that allows Gaelic education if there is demand, religious based education if that is demanded and, indeed, after school clubs to cater for parents who both work.

The opposite approach is you get what your given (education in English for everyone with no religion and between 9 and 3).

Seems to me if you want one set of freedoms you have to open up to other peoples.

[Hibbie0762]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs
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Oh dear oh dear kenny and 0762. I would not link support for the language just with the SNP, there are folk in your own party, not least Brian Wilson who have ben at the forefront of the gaelic revival.

Oh dear, oh dear indeed. I like Brian Wilson - he is forthright, perceptive and often very funny - but he is not right on every issue. Given his time at the West Highland Free Press his sympathies are unsurprising but there is also a fair subsidy culture based round Gaelic in that part of the country in particular.

Revival is a good word because that is exactly what is happening. Yes there is an issue with older speakers dying off but there has been an explosion in the numbers attending gaelic medium units.

You call it revival, I think I would see it more as a fashion, not least because it is largely happening in parts of Scotland - such as the West End of Glasgow - where Gaelic has never been traditionally spoken. The first language there is posh Kelvinside.

The language is an important part of the heritage of Scotland and part of everyday life to many in the islands in particular.

In a nation of 5,000,000+ souls, there are around 60,000 Gaelic speakers (not native speakers, just speakers) left. At the last census it had almost declined to the point where it would no longer be counted as a language. My Scots heritage, and the heritage of the great majority of us, is a heritage written, recorded and expressed in English. That's the reality.

Lose the language and Scotland loses part of its soul, part of its identity.

Bollocks. More than 99% of Scots have never spoken Gaelic, don't understand it and never will speak it.

My last point is that there is considerable evidence that childrenv who grow up bi-lingual have a natural apptitude for learning other languages.

My point, made earlier, is that devoting resources to teaching our children a modern language with some relevance to the modern world might be more useful than the navel-gazing intellectual exercise of teaching them an archaic language which is damn near dead. What's the word for "computer" in Gaelic? Aye, "computer".

This whole Gaelic thing is more about Nationalists wrapping themselves in the Saltire than anything else. I'd rather equip our children for the 21st century. I am not opposed to Scottish independence per se, but if the Nationalists' best idea is to teach us all Gaelic...

[SkyeHibs]

Originally Posted by Hibbie0762
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Oh dear, oh dear indeed. I like Brian Wilson - he is forthright, perceptive and often very funny - but he is not right on every issue. Given his time at the West Highland Free Press his sympathies are unsurprising but there is also a fair subsidy culture based round Gaelic in that part of the country in particular.

You call it revival, I think I would see it more as a fashion, not least because it is largely happening in parts of Scotland - such as the West End of Glasgow - where Gaelic has never been traditionally spoken. The first language there is posh Kelvinside.

In a nation of 5,000,000+ souls, there are around 60,000 Gaelic speakers (not native speakers, just speakers) left. At the last census it had almost declined to the point where it would no longer be counted as a language. My Scots heritage, and the heritage of the great majority of us, is a heritage written, recorded and expressed in English. That's the reality.

Bollocks. More than 99% of Scots have never spoken Gaelic, don't understand it and never will speak it.

My point, made earlier, is that devoting resources to teaching our children a modern language with some relevance to the modern world might be more useful than the navel-gazing intellectual exercise of teaching them an archaic language which is damn near dead. What's the word for "computer" in Gaelic? Aye, "computer".

This whole Gaelic thing is more about Nationalists wrapping themselves in the Saltire than anything else. I'd rather equip our children for the 21st century. I am not opposed to Scottish independence per se, but if the Nationalists' best idea is to teach us all Gaelic...

The language is reviving in places like Skye and the western isles where there has been a debate about Gaelic only schools as you may know. Yes there is groeth in the number of learners elsewhere and that is to be encouraged.

The language declined as a direct result of government policy to ban teaching in the schools. One hundred years ago more than 250,000 Scots used gaelic as part of every day life. Two hundered years ago it was more than one million.

If Gaelic is seeing appropriate funding today it does not make up for the discrimination against the gaels in the past. My wife's grandmother was typical of many of her generation, she could barely speak English and is thus the reason my wife has a grounding in it. If she wanted to speak to her gran it had to be in gaelic.


Your heritage is English but the heritage of much of Scotland is gaelic and it should be protected. That is also the reality.

I to want our children to be ready for the challenges of the 21st century and being able to communicate in gaelic, english and other languages. learning gaelic helps the process and does not hinder it.

This has got nothing to do with independence which you know I support. It is simply about those who wish to learn and speak gaelic in Scotland having that right. No more no less.

[Hibbie0762]

Originally Posted by LanarkHibs
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The language is reviving in places like Skye and the western isles where there has been a debate about Gaelic only schools as you may know. Yes there is groeth in the number of learners elsewhere and that is to be encouraged.

Why? Why is its teaching to be encouraged - and heavily subsidised - any more than one of the modern, living languages spoken by, say, our European partners? The UK's record in teaching children a second language is significantly worse than most other European countries.

The language declined as a direct result of government policy to ban teaching in the schools. One hundred years ago more than 250,000 Scots used gaelic as part of every day life. Two hundered years ago it was more than one million.

For whatever reason it declined (and some historians would suggest that it has been steadily declining since the 11th century) the fact is that it is now damn near moribund and an irrelevance. Politicians can decide to throw resources at Gaelic teaching to give it a temporary reprieve. Or the resources could be used more constructively to teach a modern skill. Depending on one's political agenda of course.

If Gaelic is seeing appropriate funding today it does not make up for the discrimination against the gaels in the past. My wife's grandmother was typical of many of her generation, she could barely speak English and is thus the reason my wife has a grounding in it. If she wanted to speak to her gran it had to be in gaelic.

I would argue that the funding is disproportionate, artificial and motivated by political considerations. It's tokenism, symbolism, for a tiny but vocal and well organised minority.

Your heritage is English but the heritage of much of Scotland is gaelic and it should be protected. That is also the reality.

It isn't and it shouldn't. There are 5,000,000+ Scots. Less than 1% of us speak or understand any Gaelic. So exactly what or whose culture are we preserving by keeping artificially alive a dying language which has no words for most of the innovations of the 20th century? As opposed to keeping alive a mythical, misty tartan and biscuit tin image of a Scotland which exists only in nostalgic imagination anyway?

I to want our children to be ready for the challenges of the 21st century and being able to communicate in gaelic, english and other languages. learning gaelic helps the process and does not hinder it.

Learning French or Spanish would help the process a damn sight more, not least because you can visit great swathes of the world where they still communicate in those languages, which do have a word for "computer".

This has got nothing to do with independence which you know I support.

Indeed I do. But with respect methinks that you and all the other Nationalists who wrap themselves in the Saltire over this one protest too much.

It is simply about those who wish to learn and speak gaelic in Scotland having that right. No more no less.

I am all for rights, but I am less enthused at throwing eduational resources the way of the trendy, well-off middle classes whose children are privileged to attend posh specialist schools in the West End of Glasgow.

No big push for Gaelic at WHEC so far as I know.

[Lix]

Interested in this largely as I used to live directly across the road from that school... always wondered what they were going to do with it ...

Have to say although my
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rents had a few words of Gaelic, it didn't pass down even to them from their parents ...

It's a nice romantic notion to keep it going and I've heard the Welsh use the argument that once your fluently bi-lingual it's much easier to learn other languages (your 'foreign' language moves over to the other side of the brain or something when you become fluent so it's on the same side as your 'native' language ... it's then much easier to learn any additional languages apparently)... but I also know the Welsh have suffered from having part of their population unable to speak English properly due to the emphasis on Welsh ... and that has been seen to be impeding them economically or was for a time anyway ...

Personally think it'd be better giving better language tuition in schools in Spanish, French and German ... I'm sure there'll still be those wanting to learn Gaelic though just not sure it should be a priority in scottish schools.

[Hibbie0762]

Originally Posted by Lix
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It's a nice romantic notion to keep it going and I've heard the Welsh use the argument that once your fluently bi-lingual it's much easier to learn other languages (your 'foreign' language moves over to the other side of the brain or something when you become fluent so it's on the same side as your 'native' language ... it's then much easier to learn any additional languages apparently)... but I also know the Welsh have suffered from having part of their population unable to speak English properly due to the emphasis on Welsh ... and that has been seen to be impeding them economically or was for a time anyway ...

Personally think it'd be better giving better language tuition in schools in Spanish, French and German ... I'm sure there'll still be those wanting to learn Gaelic though just not sure it should be a priority in scottish schools.

I just don't believe that we adequately equip Scottish children for the Third Millennium by indulging nice romantic notions. Far better to encourage them to learn modern, living languages which will be useful to them somewhere other than a croft in Plockton or whatever.

I am sure you are correct that becoming bilingual does make it easier to go on and learn other foreign languages. It just seems to me to make a lot more sense for our children to become bilingual in something other than a dying language which is no longer a first language in any meaningful way in their home country.

Scotland - independent in Europe. Aye, and speaking Gaelic in Brussels and Strasbourg. I think not.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Hibbie0762
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Aye, historically the Weedgies have a long tradition of speaking Gaelic as their first language of course. As opposed to further north, where Scotland's remainining 60,000 or so Gaelic speakers actually live. This is possibly a facility for the middle class Torquils and Hermiones from the East End of Glasgow whose parents think Gaelic is a cool thing to do.

Instead of teaching Scots children to speak a more or less dead language which historically a majority of Scots have never spoken anyway, a more outward policy of teaching useful modern languages such as French, Spanish or even Arabic might be preferable. Or Polish, as half of Poland currently appears to be living here.
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But of course the Nats wouldny like that.

you've shown your ignorance here, anyway...
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[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Lix
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Interested in this largely as I used to live directly across the road from that school... always wondered what they were going to do with it ...

Have to say although my
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rents had a few words of Gaelic, it didn't pass down even to them from their parents ...

It's a nice romantic notion to keep it going and I've heard the Welsh use the argument that once your fluently bi-lingual it's much easier to learn other languages (your 'foreign' language moves over to the other side of the brain or something when you become fluent so it's on the same side as your 'native' language ... it's then much easier to learn any additional languages apparently)... but I also know the Welsh have suffered from having part of their population unable to speak English properly due to the emphasis on Welsh ... and that has been seen to be impeding them economically or was for a time anyway ...

Personally think it'd be better giving better language tuition in schools in Spanish, French and German ... I'm sure there'll still be those wanting to learn Gaelic though just not sure it should be a priority in scottish schools.

the pupils at this school WILL be learning these languages. it is just like any other school, only taught in a gaelic medium.

i went through gaelic medium primary schooling and i managed a decent B at higher english.

[Hibbie0762]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quagmire
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you've shown your ignorance here, anyway...
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