A new British moment?

[gun ainm]

right wing society appeals to former liberals - advance of the neocon into UK, will Iraq do to Britain what Vietnam did to the USA?


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Henry Jackson Society's principles (from wikipedia)

1.Believes that modern liberal democracies set an example to which the rest of the world should aspire.

2. Supports a ‘forward strategy’ to assist those countries that are not yet liberal and democratic to become so. This would involve the full spectrum of ‘carrot’ capacities, be they diplomatic, economic, cultural or political, but also, when necessary, those ‘sticks’ of the military domain.

3. Supports the maintenance of a strong military, by the United States, the countries of the European Union and other democratic powers, armed with expeditionary capabilities with a global reach.

4. Supports the necessary furtherance of European military modernisation and integration under British leadership, preferably within North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

5. Stresses the importance of unity between the world’s great democracies, represented by institutions such as NATO, the European Union and the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, amongst many others.

6. Believes that only modern liberal democratic states are truly legitimate, and that any international organisation - such as the United Nations - which admits undemocratic states on an equal basis is fundamentally flawed.

7. Gives 'two cheers for capitalism'. There are limits to the market, which needs to serve the democratic community and should be reconciled to the environment.

8. Accepts that while priorities must be set and compromises sometimes accepted, democracies should never lose sight of their fundamental values. This means that alliances with repressive regimes can only be temporary. It also means a strong commitment to individual and civil liberties in democratic states, even and especially when those states are under attack.

a potential few recruits on here no doubt
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[Dub]

Originally Posted by theselkie

right wing society appeals to former liberals - advance of the neocon into UK, will Iraq do to Britain what Vietnam did to the USA?


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Henry Jackson Society's principles (from wikipedia)



a potential few recruits on here no doubt
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8. Accepts that while priorities must be set and compromises sometimes accepted, democracies should never lose sight of their fundamental values. This means that alliances with repressive regimes can only be temporary. It also means a strong commitment to individual and civil liberties in democratic states, even and especially when those states are under attack.

Isnt this a bit on the hypocritical side? You can make an alliance with a repressive regime as long as its only temporary. So thumbs up to all the repressive regimes out there but only for a short while and while it suits us (actually is that not what governments do at the moment whether they are liberal or not or am I missing some other point here)
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[Colr]

Reads like a big nothing - difficult to get excited about.

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by Colr

Reads like a big nothing - difficult to get excited about.

in so far as their aspirations seem to be shared by the government anyway (albeit to the consternation of the public - in general - and a large number of their own backbenchers)

however the "evangelical" promotion of liberal democracy by using carrot and stick measures (including those of the military domain) against what are called illegitamite governments, and strengthening Europe politically & militarily to maintain influence as India and China begin to overtake as the US (further EU integration) are an interesting newish development in UK politics, particularly in so formalised context?

[HenryLB]

Originally Posted by theselkie

in so far as their aspirations seem to be shared by the government anyway (albeit to the consternation of the public - in general - and a large number of their own backbenchers)

however the "evangelical" promotion of liberal democracy by using carrot and stick measures (including those of the military domain) against what are called illegitamite governments, and strengthening Europe politically & militarily to maintain influence as India and China begin to overtake as the US (further EU integration) are an interesting newish development in UK politics, particularly in so formalised context?

Have you read the
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? It's like the left wing version of this. It's long mind.

[part/time supporter]

I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with any of those, unless they are an extreme idealogue on one or more of those topics.

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by part/time supporter

I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with any of those, unless they are an extreme idealogue on one or more of those topics.

your serious - go to war with country's to assist them become liberal democracies? treating china (and other non-democratic countries) as illegitamite and second class its a manifesto for war
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[HenryLB]

Originally Posted by D.K

It has integrity, unlike the current situation, where we trade with countries have oppressive; racist and abusive internal policies. Frankly, the hypocritical stance you are advocating turns my stomach.

BTW Is it not meant to be MOVEMENT rather than MOMENT
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Oh come on, you must know by now that some people have absolutely no problem with repressive totalitarian regimes. And as for standing up to them and their revolting abuses of human rights? Screw that! It sounds scary. And anyway the USA is worse blah blah...

[egb_hibs]

Isn't liberalism intrinsically right wing?

I know it's used today - by me more than most
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- to describe the soft left, but isn't that really a mislabelling of social democrats in most cases?
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Much as people would wish it were not so, social liberalism is inseperable from economic liberalism. And is the latter not considered the defining attribute of 'right wing' these days?

At the very least, liberalism spans both left and right as these increasingly meaningless terms are deployed today.

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by D.K

It has integrity, unlike the current situation, where we trade with countries have oppressive; racist and abusive internal policies. Frankly, the hypocritical stance you are advocating turns my stomach.

BTW Is it not meant to be MOVEMENT rather than MOMENT
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so you advocate cutting off diplomatic and trading ties with China - and using enticements, sanctions and the threat of military force to move it towards western style liberal democracy? has the whiff of the puritanical about it (and the soon to be stomped on by 1 billion feet), nice we bit of imperialism coming to the fore an aw

Has yer wee un got any toys from china? wouldnt want to make daddy look like a hippo-crit (not a big mammal that lives in the congo)

its moment not movement - smugness now gone?
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[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by HenryLB

Oh come on, you must know by now that some people have absolutely no problem with repressive totalitarian regimes. And as for standing up to them and their revolting abuses of human rights? Screw that! It sounds scary. And anyway the USA is worse blah blah...

sigh - you dinnae get it do you? where exactly have i expressed unequivical support for "repressive totalitarian regimes"?

lifes more complicated that the black and white portrait you're sketching

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by D.K

No, but I would use subtefuge, spying and anything else to undermine the Chinese State, bursaries for students that kind of thing. It's two billion feet or 1 billion pair of feet - smugness gone now
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well spotted on the feet thing
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however consider the scenario whereby China was considered outcast - the chinese would be hoping mad and so a billion feet would be approriate - ok then i admit a wee mistake on that one I suppose
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so you obviously diverge from the manifesto as described above - different to what you were saying further above but glad to hear you've latterly discovered some sense.

He has and he gobs all over them with a fond contempt, consoling me in the knowledge that the industrialisation that my purchases contribute too, will utimately undermine the totalitarian state and get the imperialists out of Tibet.

how so?

My smugness disappeared only briefly mon amis, but the billion feet won it back straight away
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:YAYYY:

you need to make the same point twice? not very charitable
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[Pilrig]

Originally Posted by D.K

1.Believes that modern liberal democracies set an example to which the rest of the world should aspire.

OH YEAH
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2. Supports a ‘forward strategy’ to assist those countries that are not yet liberal and democratic to become so. This would involve the full spectrum of ‘carrot’ capacities, be they diplomatic, economic, cultural or political, but also, when necessary, those ‘sticks’ of the military domain.

OH YEAH

3. Supports the maintenance of a strong military, by the United States, the countries of the European Union and other democratic powers, armed with expeditionary capabilities with a global reach.

Strong yup!

4. Supports the necessary furtherance of European military modernisation and integration under British leadership, preferably within North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

British leadership, I have a problem with. But certainly European leadership - oh yeah

5. Stresses the importance of unity between the world’s great democracies, represented by institutions such as NATO, the European Union and the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, amongst many others.

Uh huh

6. Believes that only modern liberal democratic states are truly legitimate, and that any international organisation - such as the United Nations - which admits undemocratic states on an equal basis is fundamentally flawed.

Spot on
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7. Gives 'two cheers for capitalism'. There are limits to the market, which needs to serve the democratic community and should be reconciled to the environment.

Spot on again
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8. Accepts that while priorities must be set and compromises sometimes accepted, democracies should never lose sight of their fundamental values. This means that alliances with repressive regimes can only be temporary. It also means a strong commitment to individual and civil liberties in democratic states, even and especially when those states are under attack.

Do you think these guys have been reading the cowshed - absolutely agree
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Wait till the small print appears.

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by D.K

Oh my Marx, this gets a bit Marxist here so please bear with me. The state is trying to control industrialisation, so in effect it's riding the Capitalist Tiger (dynamic), the strains this creates in the society at large are massive. Particularly since so much of it is peasant, the peasants are becoming the perjorative peasants of old, massed against the workers of the industralising areas. They experience a different standard of living, they are threatened with being tossed off the land, as agriculture changes too - result massive unrest in the rural areas (where the bulk of the pop live) and massive growing discontentment of the rapidly industrialised workers in the conurbations. All it really needs is a wee bit of a recession and potentially some crop failures and it's a right old recipe for revolution. Besides that, there is a lot of the more educated elite that see the sense of a state without the party. That's my take dude, based on reading, watching and experiences of my mates travelling there.

The gap between rich and poor is widening in the west too iirc but you may indeed be correct - however china may go on to find another solution (other than liberal democracy so eschewed by the west) and good luck to them either way.

I humbly prostate myself before your mercy and btw I have a spare season ticket this season, so if you get off the miserable Northern fastness and need a ticket, it's yours for the asking
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Might even prise EGB and WEE162 out for a beer or two with some other Cooshed regulars
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t'would be good - will make sure i leave my wonderful northern fastness to take in the cabbage at at least a few point this season - thanks for the offer companero
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[HenryLB]

Originally Posted by theselkie

sigh - you dinnae get it do you? where exactly have i expressed unequivical support for "repressive totalitarian regimes"?

Sigh - where did I say you'd done that?

[gun ainm]

Originally Posted by HenryLB

Sigh - where did I say you'd done that?

sigh - it was inferred
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[HenryLB]

Originally Posted by theselkie

sigh - it was inferred
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Clearly. But was it implied?

[Gareth]

the implication was in the inference

[HenryLB]

Originally Posted by Gareth

the implication was in the inference

I was just pissing about. People always mix up infer and imply.

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by HenryLB

I was just pissing about. People always mix up infer and imply.

Me too, but did I get them the right way around?