when and why did 'sectarian' songs disappear from ER

[egb_hibs]

picking up from hoagy and brian's reminiscence on other thread.

i can mind the odd rebel song in the early 80s and can remember doing daft things masel like wearing my pope jp2 scottish visit scarf to games against hearts and huns.

my impression was it stopped with the dawn of the casuals. does that correspond to other people's memory - any alternative theories?
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[Brizo]

We used to stand in the old North Enclosure up by the players tunnel and for a few seasons the atmosphere in there was barry , as we used to say. Even with only 7 or 8000 in the ground cause it was such a small terrace it was always mobbed , some great memories.

Anyhow back in my early 80s North Enclosure days the Soldiers Song and Merry ploughboy were still getting an airing vs the sticky buns and hertz. When they put the seats in there and everyone moved over to what was then the uncovered main terracing singing in general seemed to die out until later on when they put a roof on it.

Casualisation may have played a part cant comment on that , but the old rebs just seemed to die a natural death bit like us singing Sailing and YNWA.

Last time I heard big numbers of hibbies singing them was 85 or 86 semi final in Dundee vs Aberdeen when a few busloads from a well known Lochend bistro took over a pub just up the road from Dens Park

[Bill Oddies Beard]

I wouldn't say it was just the casuals. But, and it's quite a big but,
they certainly influenced any younger fans coming through, with
which songs were sung. The newer fans didn't want to seem
'uncool' and 'scarferish' so they didn't sing any songs which
could be deemed as such. That's my opinion anyway.
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[Purple & Green]

Maybe the casual emergence was coincidental?

My feeling is that overt pro-catholicism/republicanism has waned in the last 20 years, maybe it waned in the 20 years preceding that.

Maybe, it's just our perception as we get older and grow up and move away from "causes". It tends to be silly wee laddies who bring tricolours to ER now for example in my experience.

Maybe, society has moved forward too and Hibs as a support mirror that. Maybe Celtic and Rangers do too, but they have much further to go and darker forces at work trying to retain the identities.

[Bill Oddies Beard]

Originally Posted by Bobby S

Maybe the casual emergence was coincidental?

My feeling is that overt pro-catholicism/republicanism has waned in the last 20 years, maybe it waned in the 20 years preceding that.

Maybe, it's just our perception as we get older and grow up and move away from "causes". It tends to be silly wee laddies who bring tricolours to ER now for example in my experience.

Maybe, society has moved forward too and Hibs as a support mirror that. Maybe Celtic and Rangers do too, but they have much further to go and darker forces at work trying to retain the identities.

You have some good points there, Bobby.
I'm certainly feeling older and more mature, but surely hertz
fans would be the same
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I've seen with my own
eyes, at the last couple of Edinburgh derby fixtures, guys
i grew up with still singing Derrys walls etc from across the
segregation points. Or is it just us Hibbies that grow up?
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[Purple & Green]

Originally Posted by brianmac

but surely hertz
fans would be the same
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I've seen with my own
eyes, at the last couple of Edinburgh derby fixtures, guys
i grew up with still singing Derrys walls etc from across the
segregation points. Or is it just us Hibbies that grow up?
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That is something that I dinnae understand, Brian: Hearts fans and Section N in particular just seem to me like people out of sync with the real world. There's nothing like it at ER, and the whole abhorrent "up to our knees in fenian blood" just doesnae ever seem to go away there. Sure, it's decreased, but it's still there.

[Dr Shrink]

I used to have a tricolour badge sewn onto my scarf, as far as I was concerned it was a simple nod to the origins of the club. To be honest, I was never too interested in the ‘roots’ and religion stuff when it came to football, (and I still couldn’t really give a toss) but I thought I was being a bit clever. That would be up until about 1972-73. Then a bunch of old guys, Hibs fans as I recall, pulled me up in the street and asked me if I was some sort of feckin idiot, and if they saw me wearing that flag again they would kick the shit out of me.
I kept the flag on my scarf, only because I am a contrary bugger, but I have been a bit wary of such things ever since.
My problem is that I simply don’t give a toss, and I have to realise that things that mean nothing to me are very important to others.

Having said that, I was an enthusiastic singer of the ‘Ploughboy’ etc in these days….again simply because I knew and cared nothing about it…. Just aped others.
Guess there were a lot of 90 minute bigots in these days. Maybe I was one too.
Incidentally, my family are all prods, and most of them Gunts. (Not MY offspring of course. They are Hibs.)
The songs didn’t stop. Not all of a sudden……… they just petered out.
Was that just because we all grew out of it?
It certainly wasn't out of any idea that it was 'wrong' all of a sudden.
Can’t sat whether the ‘casuals’ had any effect or not. There was loads of mindless football violence pre-casual days, it just didn’t have a label.

[gone the hibees]

Originally Posted by Brizo

We used to stand in the old North Enclosure up by the players tunnel and for a few seasons the atmosphere in there was barry , as we used to say. Even with only 7 or 8000 in the ground cause it was such a small terrace it was always mobbed , some great memories.

Anyhow back in my early 80s North Enclosure days the Soldiers Song and Merry ploughboy were still getting an airing vs the sticky buns and hertz. When they put the seats in there and everyone moved over to what was then the uncovered main terracing singing in general seemed to die out until later on when they put a roof on it.

Casualisation may have played a part cant comment on that , but the old rebs just seemed to die a natural death bit like us singing Sailing and YNWA.

Last time I heard big numbers of hibbies singing them was 85 or 86 semi final in Dundee vs Aberdeen when a few busloads from a well known Lochend bistro took over a pub just up the road from Dens Park

I was there and i would say you are spot on with mid 80`s

[KABULHIBBY]

Can remember the soldier song being a regular in the late 70s, alongside Men Behind The Wire being a regular on some of the more extreme wing buses.

They started dying out early 80s for definate to the stage where I doubt many, if any, of the younger fans could give you more than a small chorus.

[Colr]

Don't know much about this as it never really made an impression on me and I can't say I've noticed much but could it be that after the rise of the casuals and the associated trouble the government moved clubs towards all seater stadia which priced a lot of the more cretinous element out of the game and tended to break up groups (esp. when ticketing became more prevalent).

Personally, I don't know the words to these songs.

[egb_hibs]

Originally Posted by brianmac

I wouldn't say it was just the casuals. But, and it's quite a big but,
they certainly influenced any younger fans coming through, with
which songs were sung. The newer fans didn't want to seem
'uncool' and 'scarferish' so they didn't sing any songs which
could be deemed as such. That's my opinion anyway.
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this is what i meant brian - not that the casuals stopped people singing them, but that that generation of the young team, as it were, didnt pick up the songs for the reason you say. this then maybe caused a break in the cycle and it never picked up again
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[PILTONSTANY]

Originally Posted by Bobby S

That is something that I dinnae understand, Brian: Hearts fans and Section N in particular just seem to me like people out of sync with the real world. There's nothing like it at ER, and the whole abhorrent "up to our knees in fenian blood" just doesnae ever seem to go away there. Sure, it's decreased, but it's still there.

That's spot on,21 yr old Jambo in my work sits in section N and we were talking about banning sectarian singing.He said that it was just songs and meant nothing,I asked him what singing about blowing up kids in another country had to do with a scottish football match?
He just gave the same answer
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[Colr]

Originally Posted by PILTONSTANY

That's spot on,21 yr old Jambo in my work sits in section N and we were talking about banning sectarian singing.He said that it was just songs and meant nothing,I asked him what singing about blowing up kids in another country had to do with a scottish football match?
He just gave the same answer
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If it doesn't mean anything, they won't mind stopping singing them, then.

[LutherBlisset]

why did 'sectarian' songs disappear from ER?

I always thought it had to with the intervention of Tom Hart.

[KABULHIBBY]

Originally Posted by LutherBlisset

why did 'sectarian' songs disappear from ER?

I always thought it had to with the intervention of Tom Hart.

Not IMO, Tom Hart pleaded through the programme on quite a few occassions that the Irish tric had no place at ER in either a modern or historical context.

The demise of the sectarian song is probably due to a few external things that were happening in the country around about mod 80s.

Firstly PIRA was stepping up its' terrorism campaign on the UK mainland, something that the armchair republicans felt was a bit uncomfortable. After all it's OK to stick your fiver in the PW tin but when you're neighbourhood is under attack it sort of makes you lose a bit of sympathy.

Secondly, as has been imitated on earlier threads, the rise of the soccer casuals. Whilst crowds dwindled due to the threat of violence football fans were forced to take stock of the problem. Instead of writing it off to "just a wee bit of banter" fans were beginning to see the just how inflamatory and intimidating these things can be. There then came a natural reaction of distancing yourself from "this sort of fan", more people just wanted to be seen as a normal football fan and not part of the problem

Thirdly, and IMO, perhaps more importantly I think that Hibs fans grew up and evolved to the next natural step in becoming an all welcoming group. The past few years have perhaps seen some of the balance redressed with the official emracing of our Irish heritage but doing it on our terms and no one elses. Shameless marketing ploy or not the Ireland tour gave Hibs a renewed presence over the water.

The final death bell for it has probably been all seater stadia and the re-emergance of families and greater number of females coming to football, they have less predatory or tribal instincts than men so are les threatening(unless you get in their way to the bar
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)

[hoagy boy]

I firmly believe the Audience for football has changed beyond all recognition,Possibly for the better mibbes no,Your terracing fan compared to your Plush all seater Family stadium type are like chalk and cheese,But I wouldnt have felt as comfortable taking my girls in the mid Eighties.

[snoots]

My big brother was a "hoolie" in the 70's and all those guys were big on the rebel songs, the more obscure the better.

Mid 70's there were moves from Tom Hart to stop the party songs which were sung at every game not just derbies/huns games, to the extent that he invited the hoolies into the board room before a game and explained why he wanted them stopped (it reflected badly on Hibs in his opinion). My bro was among that group.

They stopped singing them at games although it took years before it died out altogether. Can't really remember them much in the 80's apart from on the buses/in the boozer.

As far as Hearts fans now are concerned I walked amongst them to the semi and no way do I think it's a minority singing their party songs, loads of them singing Derry's Walls the sash among other racist garbage.

[Purple & Green]

Just on the subject of casuals n sectarianism, I remember in Jay Allans book "Bloody Casuals" which was published in 1989 IIRC he makes a point along the lines of:

"I can't understand why Rangers and Celtic fans sing Fuck the Pope or Fuck the Queen."

I gave away my copy but it's in there somewhere, along with probably a diatribe against Glasgow...

[LutherBlisset]

Originally Posted by snoots

My big brother was a "hoolie" in the 70's and all those guys were big on the rebel songs, the more obscure the better.

Mid 70's there were moves from Tom Hart to stop the party songs which were sung at every game not just derbies/huns games, to the extent that he invited the hoolies into the board room before a game and explained why he wanted them stopped (it reflected badly on Hibs in his opinion). My bro was among that group.

They stopped singing them at games although it took years before it died out altogether. Can't really remember them much in the 80's apart from on the buses/in the boozer.

That was pretty much my understanding of it as well.

[Beagle]

Yes some of the guys on here are right about it being Tom Hart who demanded it be stopped altogether and I for one was pleased. As a protestant supporter of Hibs attending matches from the mid 70's onwards, and standing in centre main terracing at ER, I felt quite uncomfortable about the songs being sung and general bile being spouted around me. What I do look back on with some nostalgia though is the days before segregation. Yes there was a bit of bother but some of the banter between opposing fans standing among each other (yes even the Yams) was hilarious and taken in good part.
Or did I just dream it?
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