[superbam]

the point is - and this comes through loud and clear in any reportage on where and why the working class are turning towards the BNP - they feel they are being discriminated against and misrepresented by an elite that favours immigrants and despises them. you can haul out all the stats you like to argue otherwise, but one people like livingstone say such things, and when the establishment media covers stories selectively and one sidedly it's only going to have one effect. you may say the indy and guardian aren't that influential, but they along with the bbc are the house media stable of labour, who are the party that are losing these people. i don't think this is wholly unconnected.

Presumably you consider the independent and the guardian to be the "establishment media". I think thats attributing undue influence to them both. The Guardian is equally, if not more, critical of new labour than the majority of papers. If these papers were the establishment, and some vague pro-ethnic minority agenda was among estqablishment values, then i doubt we would find our establishment party trying to exploit ethnic tensions so brazenly as Labour attempted to in the recent by-election.

Of considerably more influence on people and policy are the tabloid press, who can hardly be accused of covering such stories selectively (or certainly not in the way you are suggesting livingstone and the guardian have been).

I have to admit I have not detected any of the bias you mention in the BBC, I dont see it as much now but im sure you will be able to enlighten me.

it's formation within afflicted communities need to be looked at closelyps - you go to far in your first sentence; it's entirely appropriate to ask what is wrong with black youth culture in london or with weegie youth culture, that leads to so much violence affecting youths within those groups. that is entirely rational and indeed necessary based on the evidence. closing ones eyes to that is just as damaging as the stuff described above. blaming everything solely on poverty is outmoded and unhelpful.

I dont think I do go too far. I said its ridiculous to attribute the problem to any particular ethnic group. It is ridiculous. I agree that culturally specific factors within afflicted communities need to be examined. However since we have seen similar problems across Britain and Ireland, Western Europe and beyond among communites of different ethnic make-ups, I think it is folly to dismiss the characteristics the afflicted areas share in common. And one of these is not ethnicity.