View Single Post
Old 14-04-06, 12:11   #12
wee 162
Bounce Flag Co-Owner
 
wee 162's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Sunny Leith
Age: 34
Posts: 12,719
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 32
wee 162 is just really nicewee 162 is just really nicewee 162 is just really nice

vCash: 5000

Arcade Stats:


Re: How do we reconcile decent wages on the home front with helping the third world o

Quote:
Originally Posted by EGB_Hibs
A number of topics over the months have touched on this conundrum, so I thought feck it, let's tackle it head on.

How can the equally meritorious ambitions to ensure a decent living for domestic workers and providing the means for the developing world to escape poverty, be reconciled? Moreover, if they cannot, then what ought to be the priority?

If we take the 'teach a man to fish' principle as being a given for developing self-sustaining economies elsewhere (if anyone has any alternative suggestions let's hear 'em) then offshoring of industry to the developing world, means removing opportunites for domestic employment. For all the cynicism about globalisation, there is as I see it, considerable evidence that countries that start off hosting less skilled jobs, with good governance, can and do proceed to take on more specialised work. The south east asian economies are of course a good example of this, but india is another - what is starting with call centres will soon end up with india as a dominant player in world technology markets.

For all that their are exploitative practices going on here and there, if these can be sorted out, it still remains very much the case that foreign workers can be paid what are, by local standards, very good wages, and still massively undercut the domestic workforce.

How then do we balance the internationalist goal of improving conditions for the poor of the world, without driving down wages on the home front, or even creating unemployment? The market-darwinist answer is of course that exporting what have become commodotised activities, should result in new jobs being created domestically that have more 'added value'.

I see a couple of problems with this however (and I'm sure others will see more):

a) Added-value, in this context, usually although not always, implies skilled or specialised work. We will always have a section of the workforce who will find it difficult to keep up with the demands this poses in terms of acquiring new skills, so what happens to them?

b) Secondly, if we look at things at a very high level, there is not that much new under the sun. Most commercial activity, whether of hard or soft goods, has similar components: manafacturing, infrastructure, sales and marketing and servicing. Manafacturing is already something we've largely exported, infrastructure - which in large parts these days means IT and telecoms - is on the way out, as is servicing. That only really leaves sales and marketing, which is not much to be going on. What I'm saying is that unless there is another transformative change round the corner akin to industrialisation or the dawn of IT and global telecomms, I'm struggling to see where the domestic labour force can retain an edge that keeps it ahead of cheaper labour overseas.

The other side of this is of course bringing the labour to industry rather than moving the industry to the labour, through mass migration. While this provokes different political responses, the dynamics are essentially the same, if perhaps not so acute: cheaper labour has the potential to drives down wages, not to mention returning migrant workers removing money from the domestic economy.

So, what do we do? This seems a really thorny problem to me tbh. It's partially mitigated by our shrinking population, which of course brings it's own problems (but for this thread let's leave that aside) but to far too small an extent to be decisive I expect.

I hope this thread provokes debate cos it will be interesting to see, for example, a left of centre take from Al or Gareth, versus (perhaps) ColR's free market approach.
Okay. First thing to mention is that the SE Asian countries you mentioned certainly were not laissez faire economies during their heavily developing stages. They had very strong protectionist policies, including strict state controls on the flow of money to avoid capital going abroad, heavy government involvement in creating the superstructure to support industry, and government support of selected industries which went as far as having board members of these companies as advisors to government, and government approval of those directors (Hyundai in Korea I believe did this).

The countries which have opened up their financial markets already are fecked imo in terms of being able to develop in a similar way. It's unfortunate that this type of development has not been the one pursued by supra-national bodies such as the World Bank or IMF since it has been shown to have worked. These organisations have instead led with a dogmatic insistence that countries own economic needs are less important than their ideological agenda.

The main point you are talking about is simply post-industrialism. The theory is that all service based industries remain internal and that is what drives the economy. The economic gains from developing nations still flow towards the already rich nations because that's where the capital is held. To use an example if you buy a Dell PC the material which go to make it are plastic, silicon, and some aluminium. The source is (usually) developing nations but the companies which own the extraction rights for these things are usually multi-nationals with the share-holders and employees living in already highly developed nations so most profits go there anyway. The profit from transportation will be to shipping companies owned by multi-nationals (you guessed it). The assembly of the parts will go all around the world, and these companies will also be owned by multi-nationals. The biggest added value that happens is when the PC becomes assembled and sent to your home and that company is probably based in the country it is going to. The software for the PC is probably designed and developed here on the grounds that there is a highly educated computer literate workforce, which means the profits, as well as the wages for workers, go here as well. Servicing of these machines will obviously be local. To sum up, all the profits from added value is probably going to end up in already developed countries to shareholders, those who provide services, and workers for multi-nationals. You could say we could pay a bit more for some things so that developing nations workers will at least be better recompensed, but while some companies may be willing to do this they will be shafted by their competition because if they don't follow that lead their product will be undercut and they will soon find themselves in trouble.

In the current economic structure of the world, it's an intractable problem imo.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
quality='high' bgcolor='#006699' width='300' height='184' name='indecision_2008_action_item' align='middle' allowScriptAccess='always' allownetworking='external' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage='
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.” Timothy Leary
wee 162 is offline   Reply With Quote